Iron Sights CCW

[M_N04H]

Most people probably shouldn’t carry a gun; perhaps that’s a hot take.

Freedom comes with risk.

 

[M_N04H]

@Vurtne you don't think so?

 

[Vurtne]

@Vurtne you don't think so?

No, I completely agree with you. That's why it's funny.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Does anyone carry without a dot still? The P2000SK was one of my first handguns and never came with milling. It’s a super comfortable CCW though. Is everyone onto dots by now? My other 2 CCW allowed by the crown do have red dots.

I did add trijicon HD night sights.

Still carrying without a dot…..

Iron sight of choice is trijicon tritium HD and also HD XR; since it’s duty/defense grade.

 

[rodralig]

Less we forget, firearms proficiency relative to carrying a gun puts you at a higher standard. If you carry a gun for protection or work, you should be performing like an M/GM.

Saying point shooting is good enough as a standard is definitely not okay.

Every gun owner should compete. It’s very accessible and not resource restrictive.

Why do you say M/GM?

From what I’ve seen, LAPD SWAT shooters are usually around mid-B level, and FAMS seem closer to high-B or low-A.

So what exactly is the difference between an M/GM and an A/B shooter that should determine whether someone is qualified to carry for personal protection as a civilian, or for work as law enforcement?

I’m not saying higher skill doesn’t matter - it absolutely does. I’m just trying to understand why M/GM would be the standard...?

 

[Gawernator]

Gatekeeping for sake of gatekeeping. That's like me saying since I am a professional athlete/racer nobody can get their M1 license endorsement unless they can qualify in an expert club race. Doesn't make sense because not everyone is going to be 99th percentile in a sport.

 

[rodralig]

Gatekeeping for sake of gatekeeping. That's like me saying since I am a professional athlete/racer nobody can get their M1 license endorsement unless they can qualify in an expert club race. Doesn't make sense because not everyone is going to be 99% percentile in a sport.

Exactly!

Rangemaster / TacCon, for example, seem to hold the view that a minimum of USPSA B-class level performance is enough to be considered “unconsciously competent.” Not necessarily elite, but competent enough that the fundamentals are running without needing to consciously think through every step.

 

[Gawernator]

Exactly!

Rangemaster / TacCon, for example, seem to hold the view that a minimum of USPSA B-class level performance is enough to be considered “unconsciously competent.” Not necessarily elite, but competent enough that the fundamentals are running without needing to consciously think through every step.

What happened to your profile pic

 

[bonesurf]

Used to carry a p365 SAS. You can’t dot that. Sorta weird but you get used to it fiber optic sight thing. And like the acronym smooth anti snag. But I gave into the dot and changed. The p2000sk is so chonky I figured a dot doesn’t really matter w the profile. If it was just less chonky. Looking forward to the vp9cc

 

[SDDAVE56]

Does anyone carry without a dot still? The P2000SK was one of my first handguns and never came with milling. It’s a super comfortable CCW though. Is everyone onto dots by now? My other 2 CCW allowed by the crown do have red dots.

I did add trijicon HD night sights.

No dots on any of my handguns, including CCW.

 

[joefrank64k]

I can’t fit a dot on my NAA .22 mag revolver, haha!!

 

[CadeH]

Your CCW pistol is in essence the last line of defence between whether or not you live or die. Carry something reliable in a configuration that you shoot the best. My acquisition and follow up shots are faster with dots vs irons so I carry with a dot. I can shoot irons (besides GI 1911) well, but in a split second scenario why would I voluntarily give up any extra milliseconds?

 

[Gawernator]

Used to carry a p365 SAS. You can’t dot that. Sorta weird but you get used to it fiber optic sight thing. And like the acronym smooth anti snag. But I gave into the dot and changed. The p2000sk is so chonky I figured a dot doesn’t really matter w the profile. If it was just less chonky. Looking forward to the vp9cc

Seems like a pretty normal width pistol to me

 

[Vurtne]

Why do you say M/GM?

From what I’ve seen, LAPD SWAT shooters are usually around mid-B level, and FAMS seem closer to high-B or low-A.

So what exactly is the difference between an M/GM and an A/B shooter that should determine whether someone is qualified to carry for personal protection as a civilian, or for work as law enforcement?

I’m not saying higher skill doesn’t matter - it absolutely does. I’m just trying to understand why M/GM would be the standard...?

It's a level of understanding and how to properly train to be able to achieve the requirements to perform at these levels. Fundamental skills are the highest priority. Not gear or tactics like how most of the industry and 2A space loves to push.

Rangemaster / TacCon, for example, seem to hold the view that a minimum of USPSA B-class level performance is enough to be considered “unconsciously competent.” Not necessarily elite, but competent enough that the fundamentals are running without needing to consciously think through every step.

C/B-class is simply a starting point, imo. Typically people starting usually either have the speed or accuracy when but not both (otherwise they'd easily be A/M); then you train accordingly to bridge the gap between the two.

I still believe that the bar for "good enough" is very low considering how serious it is to carry a gun for protection or work. This isn't me putting people down, it's wanting a higher standard for EVERYONE. I don't find it's unreasonable that I want people to be proficient and want them to succeed. I love to see people get better and discover that they are more capable than they think of themselves.

 

[Vurtne]

Gatekeeping for sake of gatekeeping. That's like me saying since I am a professional athlete/racer nobody can get their M1 license endorsement unless they can qualify in an expert club race. Doesn't make sense because not everyone is going to be 99th percentile in a sport.

Therein lies the problem. You don't know what you don't know because you've never applied yourself to find out. It's not hard shooting at a master level which is why I used it as an example of an achievable standard. You don't need the best gear, most money, or most time. It's simply doing your due diligence to train the correct way and not get sucked into all the other distractions in the gun space. Anecdotally, I dry-fired for 15 minutes a day, 4 days a week, and made Master in 6 months time with 2 matches a month and zero live fire sessions during that time.

Competition is the test to show you where your deficiencies are. Taking that feedback from your results will give you structure on what needs work. Take that into your training (whatever that may be) and show up to another match when you have the time and see if you've fixed those things.

This level of investment of your resources isn't unreasonable or unfathomable. If Joe the plumber with 2 kids can do it, so can you.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

Less we forget, firearms proficiency relative to carrying a gun puts you at a higher standard. If you carry a gun for protection or work, you should be performing like an M/GM.
Saying point shooting is good enough as a standard is definitely not okay.

Every gun owner should compete. It’s very accessible and not resource restrictive.

While I can respect your point of view, this is a slippery slope when it comes to our 2A rights. The Government, States, Counties, and Cities have all come down with restrictions and hoops to get a CCW. Then they restrict even more the types of guns we can have on said permit. They decide how we need to qualify AND how often we need to requalify and how much to charge us to do so.

While performing at a high level is definitely better, using terms like "you should" or "should compete", implies we/you/them, get to determine who gets to exercise their constitutional rights. The levels of knowledge and proficiency to drive a car is MUCH MUCH lower, those driver's kill WAY more people than firearms, and you only have to go through a rudimentary driving performance test ONCE when you are 16 then never again.

Requiring proficiency on Constitutional Rights can be a slippery slope. Training on First Amendment before you can exercise? Training on Civics before you get to Vote? Etc?

Again I can agree on your statement more is better, I stop short of putting my idea of the perfect CCW holder ahead of their rights to do so.

 

[Gawernator]

Therein lies the problem. You don't know what you don't know because you've never applied yourself to find out. It's not hard shooting at a master level which is why I used it as an example of an achievable standard. You don't need the best gear, most money, or most time. It's simply doing your due diligence to train the correct way and not get sucked into all the other distractions in the gun space. Anecdotally, I dry-fired for 15 minutes a day, 4 days a week, and made Master in 6 months time with 2 matches a month and zero live fire sessions during that time.

Competition is the test to show you where your deficiencies are. Taking that feedback from your results will give you structure on what needs work. Take that into your training (whatever that may be) and show up to another match when you have the time and see if you've fixed those things.

This level of investment of your resources isn't unreasonable or unfathomable. If Joe the plumber with 2 kids can do it, so can you.

The skill floor is that low? I don’t know about these ranks but it took me like 5-6 years of training and club racing before I was able to move up to the professional level of competition. I’d think that it’s the same for shooting sports.

And heavy agreement on being a good car driver is more important for your ability to stay alive considering your chances of dying in a car or motorcycle wreck are so much higher than dying in a CCW self defense shooting. I’m curious what the stats are on a CCW holder than used his CCW in self defense and was killed. I know that LA guy was killed in a 4 on 1 and attack and he killed one of them.

 

[Vurtne]

The skill floor is that low? I don’t know about these ranks but it took me like 7-8 years of training and club racing before I was able to move up to the professional level of competition. I’d think that it’s the same for shooting sports.

And heavy agreement on being a good car driver is more important for your ability to stay alive considering your chances of dying in a car or motorcycle wreck are so much higher than dying in a CCW self defense shooting. I’m curious what the stats are on a CCW holder than used his CCW in self defense and was killed. I know that LA guy was killed in a 4 on 1 and attack and he killed one of them.

I don't want to trivialize those who have achieved M/GM, but based on my observations/experience in the sport, it's really not that hard. If you're a serious competitor then you will eventually make M/GM if you focus your efforts on the skills required to perform well on said classifiers. There are people who solely practice classifier stages to perform well on them, but it's not indicative of match performance. You could be a GM, but if you're consisntely finishing only within the 80th percentile then that's a tell tale sign of not really being a "true" GM.

There are a lot of variables to this though, because it depends on who shows up to the match/event. Shooting at a match in a division with a national level champion present? Those scores are going to be skewed. Just competing against local heat? Maybe more representative of your classification.

 

[bonesurf]

Seems like a pretty normal width pistol to me

Oh it is….but the micros conceal so much better. For context i am 5-5 150 so im a small dude. But i miss me a paddle mag release

 

[Gawernator]

Oh it is….but the micros conceal so much better. For context i am 5-5 150 so im a small dude. But i miss me a paddle mag release

Ahhh okay. I have a micro, the Shield and it conceals ridiculously easy but the P2000SK is not hard to conceal either, especially with no optic. Something about the shape fits very well and I don't know why. Even with 12 round freedom week mags it is not heavy and I barely notice it