Iron Sights CCW

[joefrank64k]

I respect the dedication to getting better in competitions, and it comes with the side-benefit of gaining a certain comfort-at-arms.

IMHO, nothing compares to force-on-force training (aka ‘two-way range’) to really expose where your training or equipment come up short. We had guys who were into competitions fall apart when rounds started coming their way, haha!! Guys yelling ‘Cease Fire!!’, looking around for an RO to complain to after they got hit vs working the problem, haha!!

I’ll never forget one training block back in the day, using Simunitions. We were at a MOUT facility. The scenario: barricaded gunman, upstairs, with a hostage. My team was coming up a flight of external stairs while a negotiator was talking to the ‘gunman’. One of us brushed against the wall, our role-player gunman heard that, ran over and cranked off a bunch of rounds down at us through a window.

I took a simunition right on the bridge of my nose, haha!! Startled the hell out of me. Hurt like a MF’r. Knocked my glasses crooked. But we pressed on and ultimately terminated the gunman (mainly because he was talking so much trash before the scenario, haha!!).

Tl;dr: Training for competition is better than no training, and the ‘pressure’ of competition will test you. But it’s no substitute for FoF to truly expose where you’re coming up short. If you can work some FoF into your CCW training, do it.

 

[Hindsight]

I respect the dedication to getting better in competitions, and it comes with the side-benefit of gaining a certain comfort-at-arms.

IMHO, nothing compares to force-on-force training (aka ‘two-way range’) to really expose where your training or equipment come up short. We had guys who were into competitions fall apart when rounds started coming their way, haha!! Guys yelling ‘Cease Fire!!’, looking around for an RO to complain to after they got hit vs working the problem, haha!!

I’ll never forget one training block back in the day, using Simunitions. We were at a MOUT facility. The scenario: barricaded gunman, upstairs, with a hostage. My team was coming up a flight of external stairs while a negotiator was talking to the ‘gunman’. One of us brushed against the wall, our role-player gunman heard that, ran over and cranked off a bunch of rounds down at us through a window.

I took a simunition right on the bridge of my nose, haha!! Startled the hell out of me. Hurt like a MF’r. Knocked my glasses crooked. But we pressed on and ultimately terminated the gunman (mainly because he was talking so much trash before the scenario, haha!!).

Tl;dr: Training for competition is better than no training, and the ‘pressure’ of competition will test you. But it’s no substitute for FoF to truly expose where you’re coming up short. If you can work some FoF into your CCW training, do it.

Competition is, like you said, to build hard skills and make the fundamentals of shooting quickly and accurately while transitioning, moving, at varying distances and confirmation levels/acceptable accuracy levels based on the situation in the moment. It doesn't lend itself to sound tactics, but I don't think people really expect it to (or hopefully they do). It just engrains hard skills so that you don't have to think about drawing, reloading, indexing, etc. and free up mental bandwidth to focus on other things that require your attention.

Competition + FoF training + scenario based training for managing distance, verbal judo, situational awareness, and understanding what your tolerance level/"triggers" are for escalating or deploying various tools + a decent base of cardio, strength training, and grappling (BJJ or wrestling) + striking (MMA, boxing, Muay thai, etc.) seems to be the best way to be well rounded.

And sadly, sometimes it's just not enough. happens and you rarely get a say as the defender/reacting party to be able to dictate the terms of engagement. So, do the best you can to be prepared and buy yourself time and options, and be mentally, financially, and spiritually squared away should it get ugly or the worst happens.

 

[Gawernator]

Competition is, like you said, to build hard skills and make the fundamentals of shooting quickly and accurately while transitioning, moving, at varying distances and confirmation levels/acceptable accuracy levels based on the situation in the moment. It doesn't lend itself to sound tactics, but I don't think people really expect it to (or hopefully they do). It just engrains hard skills so that you don't have to think about drawing, reloading, indexing, etc. and free up mental bandwidth to focus on other things that require your attention.

Competition + FoF training + scenario based training for managing distance, verbal judo, situational awareness, and understanding what your tolerance level/"triggers" are for escalating or deploying various tools + a decent base of cardio, strength training, and grappling (BJJ or wrestling) + striking (MMA, boxing, Muay thai, etc.) seems to be the best way to be well rounded.

And sadly, sometimes it's just not enough. happens and you rarely get a say as the defender/reacting party to be able to dictate the terms of engagement. So, do the best you can to be prepared and buy yourself time and options, and be mentally, financially, and spiritually squared away should it get ugly or the worst happens.

You can train for years... and then one of your friendlies shoots you in the back...

 

[Hindsight]

You can train for years... and then one of your friendlies shoots you in the back...

It's easy to forget sometimes we are but conscious and sentient bags of mostly water and flesh. All the more reason to prepare how and when you can, but it's also not healthy for people to think they're invincible or that training alone is going to get them out of every jam. Probably a good argument to enjoy all the other aspects of what life has to offer too and not let guns and ccw/fantasies consume your life and free time.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

Since this thread has gone a bit off topic anyway . . .

I think competition training and FoF are great for skills for sure, but I also believe there is a sense of "Ready Go!" that might be missing in the real world carry situations. No buzzers. No paper targets or plates, just your average day walking along or standing in line at Starbucks looking at you phone and BOOM, you need to react.

I would guess of the ~47,000 or so members here with years of combined CCW carrying, that maybe only 3-5 people (outside of LEOs) have every had to use their weapon in a self defense scenario where they had to shoot to defend. It would be interesting to hear their real life story of what happened and how they trained to make that spit second decision to take a life. The competition training to whatever level is great but it only comes AFTER that decision has to be made.

How do we train on the decision process which leads to the putting rounds on target that interests me the most.

 

[Hindsight]

Since this thread has gone a bit off topic anyway . . .

I think competition training and FoF are great for skills for sure, but I also believe there is a sense of "Ready Go!" that might be missing in the real world carry situations. No buzzers. No paper targets or plates, just your average day walking along or standing in line at Starbucks looking at you phone and BOOM, you need to react.

I would guess of the ~47,000 or so members here with years of combined CCW carrying, that maybe only 3-5 people (outside of LEOs) have every had to use their weapon in a self defense scenario where they had to shoot to defend. It would be interesting to hear their real life story of what happened and how they trained to make that spit second decision to take a life. The competition training to whatever level is great but it only comes AFTER that decision has to be made.

How do we train on the decision process which leads to the putting rounds on target that interests me the most.

That's what I mentioned in my comment just now about scenario-based training for managing distance, increasing situational awareness (this is hard to do right because, as you said, if you're being extra vigilant for it, it's kind of gaming it), and really trying to understand and proactively establish your own internal triggers for when, in what way, and to what extent you're going to react or not react to things. You try to build out some kind of matrix internally so that if a situation arises that fits those kinds of parameters you've already talked through it yourself and are going to be more willing and likely to fully commit without having to pause and contemplate whether you should or shouldn't, whether the legal risk tolerance is acceptable for you, etc.

 

[Gawernator]

I was just curious if the majority of everyone here had gone to dots or not, and now you guys are saying we need John Wick level shooting skill to survive a 4 yard CCW encounter lol

 

[Hindsight]

I was just curious if the majority of everyone here had gone to dots or not, and now you guys are saying we need John Wick level shooting skill to survive a 4 yard CCW encounter lol

Na, the bare minimum is probably very very low and is a more a factor of which party in an encounter is worse equipped or skilled. If the aggressor (presumably as a responsible ccwer we're all exercising empathy and proactively avoiding situations when possible) is just some random criminal with a gun, you're probably better than him, but who doesn't want to increase their odds as much as possible for the statistically incredibly unlikely events. Better outcomes may lead to less legal hurdles for the inevitable legal battle to follow the physical. Plus, what if the encounter is a situation in which you aren't justified in using legal force or drawing/shooting. Gotta know how to deal with those situations as well as any entanglement a ccwer is in becomes a potential gunfight (yours).

I'd really prefer to not ever be in the situation in the first place. But, as they say, you fall to your level of training rather than rising to the occasion.

 

[Vurtne]

Competition is, like you said, to build hard skills and make the fundamentals of shooting quickly and accurately while transitioning, moving, at varying distances and confirmation levels/acceptable accuracy levels based on the situation in the moment. It doesn't lend itself to sound tactics, but I don't think people really expect it to (or hopefully they do). It just engrains hard skills so that you don't have to think about drawing, reloading, indexing, etc. and free up mental bandwidth to focus on other things that require your attention.

Competition + FoF training + scenario based training for managing distance, verbal judo, situational awareness, and understanding what your tolerance level/"triggers" are for escalating or deploying various tools + a decent base of cardio, strength training, and grappling (BJJ or wrestling) + striking (MMA, boxing, Muay thai, etc.) seems to be the best way to be well rounded.

And sadly, sometimes it's just not enough. happens and you rarely get a say as the defender/reacting party to be able to dictate the terms of engagement. So, do the best you can to be prepared and buy yourself time and options, and be mentally, financially, and spiritually squared away should it get ugly or the worst happens.

Freeing up mental bandwidth is the key component here to making better decisions and stacking percentages in your favor. Having done FoF scenarios I was leaps ahead of the average participant. At the end of the day, the scenarios can still be gamed if you have a good sense of situational awareness; stage planning lends to this awareness and decision making. Definitely a fun and eye opening experience.

EDIT: some of those scenarios you never end up firing a round or you decide to submit because that's simply the best outcome you can give yourself. It's not always guns blazing.

 

[Gawernator]

It's easy to forget sometimes we are but conscious and sentient bags of mostly water and flesh. All the more reason to prepare how and when you can, but it's also not healthy for people to think they're invincible or that training alone is going to get them out of every jam. Probably a good argument to enjoy all the other aspects of what life has to offer too and not let guns and ccw/fantasies consume your life and free time.

1000%. I gotta say I replay my two CCW encounters almost as much as my time in GTMO

 

[DIYPSCM]

Why? That’s also idiotic. Do they allow other SAOs?

None.... the ban is actually all SAOs

 

[seaeagle55]

I shoot better with an optic than with irons so the gun I carry on my belt has a red dot. My pocket gun does not, simply due to size constraints in that specific use case. I don't really feel undergunned either way, tbh.

 

[rodralig]

What happened to your profile pic

@Gawernator - I changed it to this, with call signs blurred.

 

[MattB]

None.... the ban is actually all SAOs

The stupid is strong with that agency.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Never felt the need for a red dot. Then again, I started shooting in 1978 at the age of 10 so probably and age thing going on. I do really like my XS sights.

 

[duc748bip]

No dot on my primary. Com to think of it only one of the three has a dot.

 

[DB>)>]

Driving a car is much more dangerous and the bar is there is no bar

Since my last DL renewal set off a chrono-alert, I had to do the written test for the first time in decades....

Watching so many of those taking the test taking a LOOOOOONG time, and still failing.... driving is VERY dangerous for the proficient once out on the road with all the ones who manage to stumble over the relatively low bar....

Then again, the FSC test is pretty easy if you do a little bit of study!

 

[M_N04H]

Since my last DL renewal set off a chrono-alert, I had to do the written test for the first time in decades....

Watching so many of those taking the test taking a LOOOOOONG time, and still failing.... driving is VERY dangerous for the proficient once out on the road with all the ones who manage to stumble over the relatively low bar....

Then again, the FSC test is pretty easy if you do a little bit of study!

Back when I was very new to firearms, I had no idea about the test. I was just told to go get a gun. Passed the FSC test going in blind. It's almost all common sense. With the exception of the age related questions which I kind of guessed because, again, I knew nothing going in.

 

[Gryff]

My EDC is the original P365 without a dot. I don't need a dot for daytime use, and I've done enough night shooting to know that a dot is not mandatory for near-contact distance shooting in the dark.

 

[gwb251]

I had to do 25yrds for Alameda County. I missed a three times with my Hellcat because it was so much more snappy than my others. I definitely need to train more with it.

Did you qualify with the Hellcat?