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Only ship FFL to FFL! Shipping a gun through pirateship or just making a label at your own risk

Skilly said:
From what I have learned working with UPS is you need a separate agreement as a shipper (and an account) to ship a firearm, and another account for firearm parts.

You also need an FLL license to ship yourself or ship through an FFL. If you ship anything under the radar, you are essentially rolling the dice. It may show up, but if it doesn't you wont be covered. At some point, if you wanted to file insurance, you have to describe what the coverage is for and if its disclosed for what it is, in this case an $8K firearm, they will say, we dont ship those. FedEx has a different policy I think - they have specific things that they wont ship and as long as it isnt those things, I think you can ship without an issue.

I just opened a firearms shipping account with UPS using my FFL-03. It was quick - zero hassle, and an extension of my shipping profile with them. It sits as a shipping option during my set up; super easy. I was subjected to different terms/conditions and a contract that ratified it.

There is shipmygun if you dont want to go to the process of an FFL lic, or ship through an FFL. Ive used this before I had an FFL - it was pretty simple too. You make the request, and in my case, I had the label sent to my email same day.
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What is pricing to ship a handgun with ups on your own account?
 
BONECUTR said:
My perspective from being an FFL is the following.

As others have said, there is a difference in what is legal and what the policy of the carrier is.
Shipping thru a dealer could of reached the same outcome. (ie, gun damaged/lost/destroyed)

I don't offer outgoing shipping because I have seen too many of these incidents and don't need customers getting mad at me.
Guns/Guitars/Watches/anything can get lost/broke/damaged during shipping and in many cases the carrier is going to fight you as hard as they can to not pay out even with insurance.

I have spends 100's of hours arguing with UPS/Fedex to try and get some money back.
Click to expand...
Yep it's a nightmare sometimes to get paid even with their insurance in place. The one time I tried to make a claim for like $300 I just gave up with UPS, I didn't have time to deal with that.

In this case with such an expensive gun, small claims court would be definitely worth the time and he likely will win, that's why he needs to establish all the paper trail I mentioned earlier. I can't find any legal avenue where a shipper can seize your gun and destroy it with a third party just on a whim. Not to mention under CA law you must report all missing/stolen firearms. California law requires you to report the loss or theft of a firearm (including frames, receivers, and precursor parts) to a local law enforcement agency within five days of when you knew or reasonably should have known it was missing. Failing to report the missing firearm within this timeframe is a criminal offense.
 
treelogger said:
5) UPS asks to move the case to superior court, and succeeds. They'd have to start a second case there first, but that's easy. Once in superior court, they can ask for costs and fees, and OP will end up paying for their lawyers.

And if you think I'm joking: we had a recent neighborhood dispute that led to a half dozen lawsuits, and one of the neighbors now owes the others legal fees (a six-digit amount, the first digit is not 1), and punitive damages (a 7-digit amount). Sucks being them. Don't be a jerk, don't bad-mouth people on social media, don't act unreasonably.
Click to expand...
Why do you spread false info? Small claims is part of superior court in CA lol.

That is not quite how California small claims normally works.

A defendant does not automatically get to “move it to superior court” just because they prefer lawyers. Small claims is already part of superior court. The normal route is that the defendant litigates the small claims case, and if the defendant loses, the defendant can appeal for a new hearing in the civil division.

Attorney-fee exposure on a small claims appeal is limited. CCP 116.780 caps ordinary appeal attorney fees at $150, with limited expense reimbursement. There are higher sanctions if an appeal was brought in bad faith or for harassment/delay, but that is not the same as “you will pay UPS’s lawyers.”

There is a transfer mechanism under CCP 116.390, but it requires the defendant to have its own related claim against the plaintiff exceeding small-claims jurisdiction, file that action, and request transfer. That is not an automatic escape hatch.

So yes, there are procedural risks. And yes, suing UPS in small claims is not guaranteed to be easy. But “UPS will move it to superior court and OP will end up paying their lawyers” is an overstatement unless someone can point to the specific transfer basis and fee-shifting clause/statute.

The sane advice remains: Send the demand/preservation letters first. If he sues in small claims, he should sue with a clean, narrow theory: UPS took custody of serialized property, failed to deliver, failed to return, and has not produced proof of lawful destruction. Then let UPS explain the tariff basis and chain of custody.
 
I remember when i ordered an optic online and it got shipped through UPS, on the day it was supposed to be delivered the driver changed/updated the delivery address to some house in another city. When i called UPS they told me to just do a charge back there was nothing they could do. Amazing company 🤠
 
No update? Police report filed per CA law? Demand letter sent to UPS? They'll be buying you a new one
 
smoothy8500 said:
It's been over a week now.

I'm wondering if UPS turned over the firearm to Police/Sheriff as if one could do with a "found" pistol.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t really sound like it from the post. They’d still be on the hook financially, they can’t just take your property legally
 
I was gone for almost a month and got back Friday.. I called the ATF agent who got one of my few messages and he didn't get back to me yet..
UPS has stated multiple times that they have the right to send of the gun that was shipped improperly for destruction. One UPS agent on the phone told me it has happened multiple times, I think because mine was so expensive and me calling daily, is why I got somewhere (hopefully) otherwise if it was a $300 worth used glock, I would have just wrote it off..

Hopefully I will have a real update this week now that I'm back
 
Gawernator said:
Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier, I was on a vacation for clapping back against some rude guy. Surprised nobody suggested filing a police report for a stolen/missing firearm immediately.

This is definitely not something you just let go.

I agree “stole” is probably not the cleanest word unless there is evidence an employee personally took it. “Conversion” is the more precise civil theory.


But saying it is “absolutely not conversion” is just as unsupported. OP voluntarily gave UPS possession for a limited purpose: transportation/delivery. That does not automatically transfer ownership or give UPS unlimited authority to destroy a serialized firearm with no paper trail.


UPS may have a strong tariff/policy defense if the handgun was shipped through an unauthorized label or account. That could defeat a declared-value/insurance claim. No argument there.


But claim denial is different from lawful destruction.


The questions are:

Was the package actually undeliverable?
Was delivery attempted to the gunsmith/FFL?
Was return to sender attempted?
Was return refused?
Why was the firearm supposedly nonreturnable?
What exact tariff clause did UPS rely on?
Who authorized destruction?
Who was the third-party destruction vendor?
Was the serial number documented?
Is there a destruction certificate?



Without those facts, nobody can honestly say this “probably happened exactly in accordance with law, contract, and policy.” Maybe it did. Maybe it was misrouted, lost, internally stolen, or mishandled and then explained away by a phone rep.


The policy violation may explain denial of insurance. It does not, by itself, prove UPS had lawful title or lawful authority to destroy the gun without documentation.

I would not sue as the first move. I would build the record first, fast.


  1. File a lost/missing firearm report with local law enforcement. Do not overstate it as “UPS stole it” unless there is evidence. Say the firearm is missing in transit, UPS claims it was transferred for destruction or is unrecoverable, and no proof of lawful destruction has been provided.
  2. Send UPS a written demand for the exact tariff clause, full tracking/exception history, delivery-attempt records, return-to-sender records, reason it could not be returned, chain of custody, serial-number record, third-party destruction vendor info, and destruction certificate.
  3. Put the gunsmith on written notice to preserve all communications, shipping instructions, UPS account communications, emails, texts, intake notes, and employee notes. If they told a non-FFL customer to use a normal UPS/Pirate Ship label, they may have exposure.
  4. File the formal UPS claim anyway, even if they say it will be denied.
  5. Ask whether UPS, the gunsmith, or any involved FFL filed an ATF theft/loss report or local law enforcement report.

Then, if UPS cannot produce the gun, prove lawful destruction, or pay, talk to a lawyer. The better defendant may be the gunsmith if the bad shipping instruction is in writing. UPS will argue policy violation. The gunsmith will have a harder time explaining why a firearms business told a customer to use a noncompliant shipping method.
Click to expand...
Just swamped in life right now, but basically:

I shipped a gun with my own label not a FFL original label. UPS then looked at it and changed the label from my destination FFL gunsmith to ship it to "the feds" as they told me. They also told me they direct the "feds" to destroy the gun... Apparently this is somehow legal for them to do?? Maybe, because throughout this time, I have confirmed the "feds" are indeed the ATF.

I left messages with a few ATF offices and the one in Kentucky did get back to me and said they will look into it.
He then said they found my gun and when I get back to get in touch with him.

He hasn't answered me yet, so I'll give it another day and call again.

I also knew to contact the Kentucky ATF because I had an airtag in the box.. The airtag was destroyed a few days after I shipped it!!


Alot of this is wild and really really pissed me off that it could even go down like this. As long as the gun comes back or gets to the gunsmith, then I will finally be able to sleep at night, but I have been better because the ATF agent said its going to him and he will help me.
 
Skilly said:
From what I have learned working with UPS is you need a separate agreement as a shipper (and an account) to ship a firearm, and another account for firearm parts.

You also need an FLL license to ship yourself or ship through an FFL. If you ship anything under the radar, you are essentially rolling the dice. It may show up, but if it doesn't you wont be covered. At some point, if you wanted to file insurance, you have to describe what the coverage is for and if its disclosed for what it is, in this case an $8K firearm, they will say, we dont ship those. FedEx has a different policy I think - they have specific things that they wont ship and as long as it isnt those things, I think you can ship without an issue.

I just opened a firearms shipping account with UPS using my FFL-03. It was quick - zero hassle, and an extension of my shipping profile with them. It sits as a shipping option during my set up; super easy. I was subjected to different terms/conditions and a contract that ratified it.

There is shipmygun if you dont want to go to the process of an FFL lic, or ship through an FFL. Ive used this before I had an FFL - it was pretty simple too. You make the request, and in my case, I had the label sent to my email same day.
Click to expand...
this is all 100%

I have learned now. Bad part is the gunsmith TOLD me to do it this way. And after I told the gunsmith that he should tell people otherwise he said that isn't the law and isn't going to change, which I said - well this will happen again. It was not illegal, but UPS doesn't play around and they must have some agreement with the ATF directly.
 
p--and--p said:
Just swamped in life right now, but basically:

I shipped a gun with my own label not a FFL original label. UPS then looked at it and changed the label from my destination FFL gunsmith to ship it to "the feds" as they told me. They also told me they direct the "feds" to destroy the gun... Apparently this is somehow legal for them to do?? Maybe, because throughout this time, I have confirmed the "feds" are indeed the ATF.

I left messages with a few ATF offices and the one in Kentucky did get back to me and said they will look into it.
He then said they found my gun and when I get back to get in touch with him.

He hasn't answered me yet, so I'll give it another day and call again.

I also knew to contact the Kentucky ATF because I had an airtag in the box.. The airtag was destroyed a few days after I shipped it!!


Alot of this is wild and really really pissed me off that it could even go down like this. As long as the gun comes back or gets to the gunsmith, then I will finally be able to sleep at night, but I have been better because the ATF agent said its going to him and he will help me.
Click to expand...
Yeahhhh tbh sounds more like someone tried to steal the gun and they realized you're figuring it out. Destroying an airtag kinda says it all. I couldn't find any legal justification or verbiage that says they can legally seize and destroy your firearm. Worst case you sue them in small claims, which is why it's important you record all of this. I've shipped guns through UPS a few times and nothing like this ever happened. The reps just want to make you go away and end the call, not help you. Probably outsourced anyways. I hope you made that stolen firearm report. You gotta put the legal pressure on them.

Bad news is I did find this legal code in my research, oof:
This subsection shall not apply with respect to the sale or disposition of a firearm or ammunition to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector who pursuant to subsection (b) of section 925 is not precluded from dealing in firearms or ammunition, or to a person who has been granted relief from disabilities pursuant to subsection (c) of section 925.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

 
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p--and--p said:
Ask me how I know? One of the largest gunsmiths known- told me to print a label at home and slap it on my very expensive Atlas 2011.

The gun has been destroyed according to UPS. They cant confirm it but gave it away to a 3rd party to destroy and they are within their rights apparently.

There is no recourse or insurance payout or anything. ATF said it isn't their deal. My local PD cant do anything. The gun is just gone. Is there a hope, I pray there is. If I lose this gun, I think Im out. Im done with all the laws and everything. Let them take away all our guns and we become slaves- its going that way anyways.

I'm wrecked. I havent slept in a week, i wake up for hours just thinking about it. Can't eat either. Who the F do they think they are they can just destroy a serialized gun, but they can and do all the time I was told.

DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY FFL telling you to ship, know shipping policies or better just use a gun store (which I would have gladly but didnt think i had to because I was told I didnt) I can't rail against the FFL, he should have known but I dunno.. I'm just wrecked and do not know what to do
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That said gunsmith has a buddy at your local UPS location.
 
Here's an article directly from Pirate Ship on the subject:

"You can only use USPS to send firearms through Pirate Ship, not UPS.
Due to our agreement with UPS, you can't send any firearms with UPS on Pirate Ship. UPS prohibits guns or firearms of any kind to be sent on our platform. A firearm scope is the only firearm-related item that UPS allows you to buy labels for on Pirate Ship."

support.pirateship.com

How to properly ship guns and firearms on Pirate Ship | Pirate Ship Support

Learn how to package and send firearms to ensure you're compliant with laws and carrier restrictions
support.pirateship.com support.pirateship.com

"Pirate Ship-specific prohibitions: UPS also prohibits several items from being shipped with Pirate Ship, such as anything containing hazardous materials, firearms, ammunition, and others. Attempting to ship any of these items will void any carrier liability coverage and may result in your Pirate Ship account being restricted."

support.pirateship.com

Everything you need to know about UPS | Pirate Ship Support

The getting started guide for all things UPS on Pirate Ship, including choosing a service, scheduling pickups, refunding labels, and more
support.pirateship.com support.pirateship.com

---

That being said, UPS does allow individuals (FFL03) and FFLs (non-03) to ship firearms. The restriction is specifically with Pirate Ship in general.

"UPS accepts packages containing Firearm Products for shipment only as a contractual service and only from Shippers who are licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code) to authorized recipients, as outlined in an approved UPS agreement for the transportation of Firearm Products."


FedEx policy is basically the same as UPS (FFL requirement).


---

Here's USPS policy too for good measure: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_010.htm
From what I can tell, USPS doesn't allow handguns in general, even if you're shipping from non-FFL to FFL destination which is allowed for rifles and shotguns.

"Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by licensed firearm manufacturers, dealers, importers, or authorized agents of federal, state, territory, or district governments, only upon filing the required affidavit or certificate and when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person‘s official duties"
 
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p--and--p said:
Ask me how I know? One of the largest gunsmiths known- told me to print a label at home and slap it on my very expensive Atlas 2011.

The gun has been destroyed according to UPS. They cant confirm it but gave it away to a 3rd party to destroy and they are within their rights apparently.

There is no recourse or insurance payout or anything. ATF said it isn't their deal. My local PD cant do anything. The gun is just gone. Is there a hope, I pray there is. If I lose this gun, I think Im out. Im done with all the laws and everything. Let them take away all our guns and we become slaves- its going that way anyways.

I'm wrecked. I havent slept in a week, i wake up for hours just thinking about it. Can't eat either. Who the F do they think they are they can just destroy a serialized gun, but they can and do all the time I was told.

DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY FFL telling you to ship, know shipping policies or better just use a gun store (which I would have gladly but didnt think i had to because I was told I didnt) I can't rail against the FFL, he should have known but I dunno.. I'm just wrecked and do not know what to do
Click to expand...
What’s the latest on this, OP? Progress? Have you given up? Do we need to start a go fund me for you?
 
Unbend said:
Here's USPS policy too for good measure: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_010.htm
From what I can tell, USPS doesn't allow handguns in general, even if you're shipping from non-FFL to FFL destination which is allowed for rifles and shotguns.

"Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by licensed firearm manufacturers, dealers, importers, or authorized agents of federal, state, territory, or district governments, only upon filing the required affidavit or certificate and when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person‘s official duties"
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In Jan 2026, USDOJ found:
Constitutionality of 18 U.S.C. § 1715

Section 1715 of title 18, U.S. Code, is unconstitutional as applied to constitutionally
protected firearms, including handguns, because it serves an illegitimate purpose and
is inconsistent with the Nation’s tradition of firearm regulation. See N.Y. State Rifle &
Pistol Ass’n v. Bruen, 142 S. Ct. 2111, 2129–30 (2022).

The Department of Justice may not, consistent with the Constitution, enforce section 1715
with respect to constitutionally protected firearms. The Postal Service should modify
its regulations to conform with this opinion..
Click to expand...
While no further guidance has issued, if fully implemented, this would open USPS mailing of handguns by individual citizens,

See: https://www.justice.gov/olc/media/1423701/dl
 
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