Only ship FFL to FFL! Shipping a gun through pirateship or just making a label at your own risk

[1911-CV]

It's a far stretch that the superior court is going to accept a 5K small claims lawsuit. And if they did, you can just drop your lawsuit and move on.

There is basically only Superior Court in California; they hear everything from Small Claims through Death Penalty cases, unless you get into appeals or federal court. I think the Small Claims maximum in California is $12,500. Perhaps there was speculation about moving a case from Small Claims to Limited or Unlimited Civil or maybe to federal court? The dollars involved wouldn't support moving the case within the state court system (see: Case Filing).

 

[treelogger]

It's a far stretch that the superior court is going to accept a 5K small claims lawsuit. And if they did, you can just drop your lawsuit and move on.

First, courts have no choice but to accept cases. They can't just go "no fat enough, not worth eating". Second, the superior court case wouldn't be about the 5K. It would be more interesting. For example UPS could file a defamation lawsuit, for saying bad and untrue things about them on social media (whether they're right or not is not initially important for the motions stage). And then merge that suit (which on its own is pretty hopeless) with the 5K small claims case OP might have started against UPS.

 

[D.A.V.I.D.]

What gunsmith told you to do this? My buddy was about to ship his gun to Skips gunz a couple years ago and he told him just use the post office and ship it, don't tell them what it is. Fortunately he didn't and Skip wasn't allowed to screw up another gun. I've had to send probably 5 or 6 guns back to manufacturers over the years and all of them including Atlas sent me the label to use.

 

[Hindsight]

What gunsmith told you to do this? My buddy was about to ship his gun to Skips gunz a couple years ago and he told him just use the post office and ship it, don't tell them what it is. Fortunately he didn't and Skip wasn't allowed to screw up another gun. I've had to send probably 5 or 6 guns back to manufacturers over the years and all of them including Atlas sent me the label to use.

Yup, skip skipz if you want to keep your guns in good condition.

 

[Dvrjon]

Good point, why would they have accepted the gun in the first place..

Perhaps, and I’m just spitballin’ here, perhaps the OP didn’t declare it as a firearm, or declared it as “tools” or statuary, or simply wasn’t asked. Then, as a part of processing, UPS ran it through a scanner because somebody got curious about the package weight or the address.

The take-away is, for the past few years, neither UPS nor FedEx will ship firearms.

As noted above, if the USPS follows the USDOJ opinion that they must ship handguns for everyday citizens (FFLs can use them) the USPS could become profitable.

Until then, ShipMyGun (Bud’s Guns creation) is a safe, viable alternative if the vendors you are using are on file with them.

 

[SomeOne]

Ask me how I know? One of the largest gunsmiths known- told me to print a label at home and slap it on my very expensive Atlas 2011.

The gun has been destroyed according to UPS. They cant confirm it but gave it away to a 3rd party to destroy and they are within their rights apparently.

Kinda odd. I was able to ship my Springfiled to the factory on the warranty case through FEDEX. They shipped it back to me directly too.

 

[Dvrjon]

Kinda odd. I was able to ship my Springfiled to the factory on the warranty case through FEDEX. They shipped it back to me directly too.

It’s not odd. Warranty returns are fronted by the manufacturer and they send you the label. You are acting as their agent to ship the gun.
The return is equally not odd. The manufacturer has a contract with the shipper, as discussed above.

 

[treelogger]

Then, as a part of processing, UPS ran it through a scanner

That's not even necessary. Guns that have been used can be easily identified by the presence of gunpowder remnants. Those have a characteristic smell, which is why the dogs at airports are very good at sniffing guns. And since 9/11, there has been amazing technology for chemically detecting the vapor of explosive and gun powder, which are the "sniffers" used at airport security checkpoints. I would not at all be surprised if UPS has those installed on package processing conveyor belts. The gunpowder residue probably triggered, and that caused the package to be quickly X-rayed, and there you have it.

Talk sometime to scientists (there are quite a few in Silicon Valley) who have been working on "national security" checking of shipping and shipping containers. They use interesting technology and interesting data analysis techniques (combining various data sources, such as chemical spectra, X-rays, neutron activation). Fun stuff.

 

[Dvrjon]

That's not even necessary. Guns that have been used can be easily identified by the presence of gunpowder remnants. Those have a characteristic smell, which is why the dogs at airports are very good at sniffing guns. And since 9/11, there has been amazing technology for chemically detecting the vapor of explosive and gun powder, which are the "sniffers" used at airport security checkpoints. I would not at all be surprised if UPS has those installed on package processing conveyor belts. The gunpowder residue probably triggered, and that caused the package to be quickly X-rayed, and there you have it.

Talk sometime to scientists (there are quite a few in Silicon Valley) who have been working on "national security" checking of shipping and shipping containers. They use interesting technology and interesting data analysis techniques (combining various data sources, such as chemical spectra, X-rays, neutron activation). Fun stuff.

All good points…But, since I don’t know if UPS has some proximity sensor capability, I was just trying for a simpler example of how this could happen.

Regarding TSA, my experience with them (although aged) is that they swab the parcel and run the swab through a spectrograph. This occurred when a TS/SCI cleared laptop I was carrying spiked the system post 9/11. I spent 30 minutes in the lounge chatting with my now “escort” while they reassessed the laptop and also pulled my bags for review. My military orders did nothing for me, but everything was deemed safe and I proceeded to Singapore through Narita, Japan.

As for current day, I doubt that the full spectrum of “Silicon Valley’s” solutions is currently imbedded in FedEx and UPS.

 

[riceman]

DAMN

 

[grandpapeepap]

DAMN

 

[acuracing]

What gunsmith told you to do this?

It was DSC Gunworks, info was provided in another forum.

 

[adrkwan]

Sorry dude. Best of luck getting the gun back.

 

[Gawernator]

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier, I was on a vacation for clapping back against some rude guy. Surprised nobody suggested filing a police report for a stolen/missing firearm immediately.

This is definitely not something you just let go.

I agree “stole” is probably not the cleanest word unless there is evidence an employee personally took it. “Conversion” is the more precise civil theory.


But saying it is “absolutely not conversion” is just as unsupported. OP voluntarily gave UPS possession for a limited purpose: transportation/delivery. That does not automatically transfer ownership or give UPS unlimited authority to destroy a serialized firearm with no paper trail.


UPS may have a strong tariff/policy defense if the handgun was shipped through an unauthorized label or account. That could defeat a declared-value/insurance claim. No argument there.


But claim denial is different from lawful destruction.


The questions are:

Was the package actually undeliverable?
Was delivery attempted to the gunsmith/FFL?
Was return to sender attempted?
Was return refused?
Why was the firearm supposedly nonreturnable?
What exact tariff clause did UPS rely on?
Who authorized destruction?
Who was the third-party destruction vendor?
Was the serial number documented?
Is there a destruction certificate?



Without those facts, nobody can honestly say this “probably happened exactly in accordance with law, contract, and policy.” Maybe it did. Maybe it was misrouted, lost, internally stolen, or mishandled and then explained away by a phone rep.


The policy violation may explain denial of insurance. It does not, by itself, prove UPS had lawful title or lawful authority to destroy the gun without documentation.

I would not sue as the first move. I would build the record first, fast.

1. File a lost/missing firearm report with local law enforcement. Do not overstate it as “UPS stole it” unless there is evidence. Say the firearm is missing in transit, UPS claims it was transferred for destruction or is unrecoverable, and no proof of lawful destruction has been provided.
2. Send UPS a written demand for the exact tariff clause, full tracking/exception history, delivery-attempt records, return-to-sender records, reason it could not be returned, chain of custody, serial-number record, third-party destruction vendor info, and destruction certificate.
3. Put the gunsmith on written notice to preserve all communications, shipping instructions, UPS account communications, emails, texts, intake notes, and employee notes. If they told a non-FFL customer to use a normal UPS/Pirate Ship label, they may have exposure.
4. File the formal UPS claim anyway, even if they say it will be denied.
5. Ask whether UPS, the gunsmith, or any involved FFL filed an ATF theft/loss report or local law enforcement report.

Then, if UPS cannot produce the gun, prove lawful destruction, or pay, talk to a lawyer. The better defendant may be the gunsmith if the bad shipping instruction is in writing. UPS will argue policy violation. The gunsmith will have a harder time explaining why a firearms business told a customer to use a noncompliant shipping method.

 

[Gawernator]

They did not. The OP voluntarily gave them the firearm. At best you could claim "conversion". But given that this whole thing probably happened exactly in accordance with law, contract, and policies, it is absolutely not conversion.


Exactly in accordance with their contractual terms and policies, which the OP accepted when they shipped the item.


What difference does that make? For most of the things (like the shipping label) there is records, and the policies and contract terms are all published and well known.


Insurance against what? Fire, flood, act of good?

Matter-of-fact, it is usually illegal to insurance against contract violation and illegal acts, as that does not further public policy.

You are assuming the conclusion.

I agree “stole” may not be the precise word without evidence of employee theft. “Conversion” or “wrongful disposition” is cleaner.


But voluntary tender to a carrier for shipment is not a transfer of ownership. The shipper gave UPS possession for a limited purpose: transportation/delivery. If UPS claims it had authority to destroy a serialized firearm, then the factual basis matters.


What exact tariff clause authorized destruction?
Was delivery attempted?
Was return to sender attempted?
Was return refused?
Why was return impossible?
Who authorized destruction?
Was the serial number recorded?
Who was the third-party destruction vendor?
Is there a destruction certificate?


A policy violation may support denial of declared value coverage. It does not automatically prove UPS had lawful authority to destroy the firearm or that it actually was destroyed.


And written correspondence with the gunsmith matters a lot. If a firearms business instructed a non-FFL customer to use a noncompliant shipping method, that goes directly to reliance, negligence, and causation.

 

[grandpapeepap]

why are there such huge gaps in spaces? is it to get someone like me to ask that question?

 

[Gawernator]

why are there such huge gaps in spaces? is it to get someone like me to ask that question?

I'm on my phone g

 

[BONECUTR]

My perspective from being an FFL is the following.

As others have said, there is a difference in what is legal and what the policy of the carrier is.
Shipping thru a dealer could of reached the same outcome. (ie, gun damaged/lost/destroyed)

I don't offer outgoing shipping because I have seen too many of these incidents and don't need customers getting mad at me.
Guns/Guitars/Watches/anything can get lost/broke/damaged during shipping and in many cases the carrier is going to fight you as hard as they can to not pay out even with insurance.

I have spends 100's of hours arguing with UPS/Fedex to try and get some money back.

 

[grandpapeepap]

I'm on my phone g

 

[Skilly]

From what I have learned working with UPS is you need a separate agreement as a shipper (and an account) to ship a firearm, and another account for firearm parts.

You also need an FLL license to ship yourself or ship through an FFL. If you ship anything under the radar, you are essentially rolling the dice. It may show up, but if it doesn't you wont be covered. At some point, if you wanted to file insurance, you have to describe what the coverage is for and if its disclosed for what it is, in this case an $8K firearm, they will say, we dont ship those. FedEx has a different policy I think - they have specific things that they wont ship and as long as it isnt those things, I think you can ship without an issue.

I just opened a firearms shipping account with UPS using my FFL-03. It was quick - zero hassle, and an extension of my shipping profile with them. It sits as a shipping option during my set up; super easy. I was subjected to different terms/conditions and a contract that ratified it.

There is shipmygun if you dont want to go to the process of an FFL lic, or ship through an FFL. Ive used this before I had an FFL - it was pretty simple too. You make the request, and in my case, I had the label sent to my email same day.