Where & how to fight, undermine, overturn AB 1263, 2571 + SB 704?!? These can NOT be allowed to stand.

[nakatomi]

First step: Does the law/regulation even affect the exercise of the 2A significantly (*)? If no, then all 2A arguments (including Bruen, MacDonald, Heller, Miller and Dred Scott) are irrelevant. If yes, then we need to know how to evaluate 2A infringement, and today we need to follow Bruen (as refined by Rahimi and backed up by Heller/MacDonald). The issue with AB 1263 and friends is that they fail the first test already: It continues to be relatively easy and relatively inexpensive to obtain gun parts..

I think your argument depends on what "significant" means.

Under Bruen the test is not just "is it still possible." The court looks at history and also at real world burden.

So.. what is your actual standard??

Right now a lot of companies are just not shipping to CA at all. People are having to hunt around go through FFLs or just give up on certain parts. That is already happening in this thread and others. At what point does that become a burden?

If the answer is “as long as it is possible somewhere” then almost any restriction would pass. That does not seem consistent with Bruen.

There is no "soft on crime" policy in the first place. There was a voter referendum that changed some felony's to misdemeanors but then another one that reversed it. None of that even has to do with the governor or the legislature which have both passed more "tough on crime" bills in the last few years. I think it would be helpful to identify specific policies in order to seek actual solutions, you and many other are operating on "feels" rather than concrete issues. I have endless criticism for the governor and legislature but I firmly believe you have to criticize real things to make progress and not just repeat internet propaganda.

I’m not saying it’s all "soft on crime" or one policy caused everything.

I’m saying policy still matters. If enforcement is inconsistent or penalties are lower, people are more likely to do it again. That’s just basic cause and effect esp for theft.

You can see it in real life. Stores locking everything up, closing locations (In N Out leaving Oakland could have been preventable) changing how they operate.

I mean what do you think is causing that??

Since there is a fairly easy path to compliance it's a hard argument to make...

I think this is where we’re talking past each other.

Are you saying "as long as you can still get it somehow, it’s fine"? Or are you actually applying Bruen? Because Bruen isn’t about whether there’s some technical path to comply. It’s about whether there’s a historical tradition for that kind of rule and what it actually looks like in the real world.

And right now in the real world, companies are just not shipping to CA. That’s not theoretical. That’s happening.

So yeah maybe there’s a compliance path on paper. But if people can’t actually access stuff in practice that matters. Otherwise the standard just becomes "as long as it’s not impossible, it’s fine." That doesn’t really sound like Bruen.

 

[grandpapeepap]

Is the thread creator the same DrJones that used to be on calguns

 

[Jimi Jah]

Lawsuits are filled on these laws by gun rights organizations right after they become law. They work their way up the legal totem pole until they are blocked by a liberal court.

That can be a state court, state appeals court, a local federal court up to a federal district court ending up if they survive to a district appeals court.

That is a lot of stages to get through. In the end they get stuck awaiting a Supreme Court case. That is where our California gun lawsuits go to die.

Until these questionable gun laws get resolved they will be with us forever. There is zero incentive for our Supreme Court to resolve controversial cases. They are afraid of making those decisions because of retribution from nutty people here. Just ask Kavenough after his assasination attempt. He has been quiet ever since that happened.

 

[colddeadhands916]

I’m disappointed in the sheer number of out of touch boomers, bootlickers, and neckbearded commies from reddit there are on this site who dont understand what “shall not be infringed means”

I will pray for you to see the light, and read the federalist papers. Btw your dead ancestors are dissappointed in you too. peace

Edit: Btw i have no idea why the NRA is being mentioned as a serious gun rights organization. thats laughable. Anyone serious about 2A rights should support the real heroes - the national firearms policy group.

Also Republicans are speedbumps, they do nothing when in power and only serve to delay the left. the fact the NFA tax for suppressors and sbr registrations is 0$ honestly surprises me. but they’ll never pass anything that punishes legislators who pass laws that violate the 2nd ammendment flagrantly. I vote for Woodchipper 2028

 

[Enthused]

I’m disappointed in the sheer number of out of touch boomers, bootlickers, and neckbearded commies from reddit there are on this site who dont understand what “shall not be infringed means”

Also Republicans are speedbumps, they do nothing when in power and only serve to delay the left. the fact the NFA tax for suppressors and sbr registrations is 0$ honestly surprises me. but they’ll never pass anything that punishes legislators who pass laws that violate the 2nd ammendment flagrantly. I vote for Woodchipper 2028

A very large chunk of the users on this website (and r/caguns) voted for Kamala/Walz, Gavin Newsom, and the rest of the gun grabbers. And they would do it again in a heartbeat.

As I've stated before, there are no Democrat 2A single issue voters, because if that was the case, they would never be a Democrat. This means that every Democrat voter in this website places other issues above the 2A, or some combination of issues totaling more to their personal view than the 2A itself.

And I agree that the Republicans are total idiots, who when give power to actually solve 2A issues, do absolutely nothing.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I think your argument depends on what "significant" means.

Under Bruen the test is not just "is it still possible." The court looks at history and also at real world burden.

So.. what is your actual standard??

Right now a lot of companies are just not shipping to CA at all. People are having to hunt around go through FFLs or just give up on certain parts. That is already happening in this thread and others. At what point does that become a burden?

If the answer is “as long as it is possible somewhere” then almost any restriction would pass. That does not seem consistent with Bruen.





I’m not saying it’s all "soft on crime" or one policy caused everything.

I’m saying policy still matters. If enforcement is inconsistent or penalties are lower, people are more likely to do it again. That’s just basic cause and effect esp for theft.

You can see it in real life. Stores locking everything up, closing locations (In N Out leaving Oakland could have been preventable) changing how they operate.

I mean what do you think is causing that??




I think this is where we’re talking past each other.

Are you saying "as long as you can still get it somehow, it’s fine"? Or are you actually applying Bruen? Because Bruen isn’t about whether there’s some technical path to comply. It’s about whether there’s a historical tradition for that kind of rule and what it actually looks like in the real world.

And right now in the real world, companies are just not shipping to CA. That’s not theoretical. That’s happening.

So yeah maybe there’s a compliance path on paper. But if people can’t actually access stuff in practice that matters. Otherwise the standard just becomes "as long as it’s not impossible, it’s fine." That doesn’t really sound like Bruen.

If you take an anecdote like the In n Out closing it's kind of similar to gun control based on one shooting event. The overall statistics paint a very different story, such as the generally declining murder and property crime rates in Oakland. I was in Oakland in the 90s and it was sooooo much worse. Even when I lived there in the later 00s I would routinely have people shooting guns on my corner. That's not an anecdote either, it's a statistical fact. Every crime stat is less than those time periods. Even during the pandemic where literally everywhere had increases in all types of crime, the crime rate only regressed to like 2014 levels. That's not that long ago and still much much better than it used to be. So if you want to have a meaningful conversation about policy, which policy are we talking about? Local Oakland PD policy? State of California Policy? Which effect? the fact that crime is down from 20 years ago? how about how crime is down from 3 years ago, which policy did that? And what policy is a different governor proposing that would be different? As for what causes crime, it's a big question but correlates strongly with poverty and income disparity. That's what the pandemic spike has been attributed to, less jobs and less money for many. So what would a different governor do to change poverty? Republicans generally want more income disparity, less social safety net, less services, less job security by fighting strong labor laws and unions. That to me says that they don't have a meaningful platform to help change any of these issues and no solutions.

As for Bruen, the thing you have to realize is the law is fake and made up. You are applying it like a math problem but it isn't. For instance the SC recently said that "ghost gun parts kits" were subject to the same background checks as firearms even though they didn't meet the strict definition of the Firearms Act in that they were not a complete product. So was there a historical analogue for "firearms parts kits" being regulated? Are barrels a firearm? The SC has said no, so does the Bruen test even apply because it's not a firearm? I hate the new laws, believe me, I'm just saying that legally a full restriction is a much easier thing to fight than a law that vaguely makes it more difficult to get parts. Again, there is a provision for compliance and companies can sell parts and barrels and firearms. At the end of the day our opinions don't matter though, the SC will have to decide, or not. It's really out of our hands.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I’m disappointed in the sheer number of out of touch boomers, bootlickers, and neckbearded commies from reddit there are on this site who dont understand what “shall not be infringed means”

I will pray for you to see the light, and read the federalist papers. Btw your dead ancestors are dissappointed in you too. peace

Edit: Btw i have no idea why the NRA is being mentioned as a serious gun rights organization. thats laughable. Anyone serious about 2A rights should support the real heroes - the national firearms policy group.

Also Republicans are speedbumps, they do nothing when in power and only serve to delay the left. the fact the NFA tax for suppressors and sbr registrations is 0$ honestly surprises me. but they’ll never pass anything that punishes legislators who pass laws that violate the 2nd ammendment flagrantly. I vote for Woodchipper 2028

I'm disppointed that you haven't read Heller and Bruen, the two most important firearms decisions, both penned by conservatives and both clear that background checks are not infringement, licenses are not infringement and that 2a rights are not unlimited. They have also in later cases said that ghost gun parts kits are de facto firearms subject to the same rules as firearms and that a restraining order by a court is enough to take someones guns. You can say what you want about your personal beliefs, I probably agree with you as far as what I would want for gun regulation, but the "shall not be infringed" idea that you have is a complete fantasy, it doesn't mean what you think it does. Unless of course the SC says it does, but that's not going to happen.

 

[treelogger]

I think your argument depends on what "significant" means.

Under Bruen the test is not just "is it still possible." The court looks at history and also at real world burden.

That's not my understanding. First, the court looks at "real world burden", meaning whether the law/regulation really meaningfully constrains exercising the 2A rights or not. Only if that is answered in the affirmative does the court begin the history/tradition/... analysis.

So.. what is your actual standard??

Right now a lot of companies are just not shipping to CA at all. People are having to hunt around go through FFLs or just give up on certain parts. That is already happening in this thread and others. At what point does that become a burden?

If the answer is “as long as it is possible somewhere” then almost any restriction would pass. That does not seem consistent with Bruen.

The question here is one of fact, not of law. Some commenters (such as the OP in this thread) claim that it is impossible to get some parts/accessores/..., and excruciatingly difficult and expensive to get any. In other threads here on this site, or on Calguns, or on Reddit, people report success buying things, and report low or no extra cost. But that is all anecdotes. And we have to expect that some of the anecdotes are colored by the mindset of the person telling them. For an actual court case, a more accurate cross-sectional study would be needed. My educated guess (taking into account the known identity and predilections of posters) is that in the real world, the effect of 1263 is minor.

The Rohde case is an instructional comparison. There, the complaint was that certain people are completely incapable of legally purchasing ammo (because the background check system is wrongly but consistently denying them), and that a large fraction (double-digit percent) of all ammo purchases were delayed or denied. That level of constraint on ammunition purchasing did indeed rise to violating the 2A under Bruen (see the Rohde 3-judge panel decision). Note that the de minimis delay and extra cost of applying the FFL or face-to-face requirement and background check fee did not rise to that level, nor did it run into the commerce clause. The comparison makes it extremely unlikely that a challenge to 1263+friends would succeed.

And right now in the real world, companies are just not shipping to CA. That’s not theoretical. That’s happening.

Ever tried to buy a diesel engine fuel pump on Amazon? It has become virtually impossible, because Amazon is over-eagerly complying with California's heat pump efficiency laws, and blocking most pumps from being sold. And Amazon is widely recognized (like it or not) as the cheapest supplier of inexpensive parts. From an economic impact viewpoint, this is a much bigger deal than gun accessories (more money is spent on diesel engines). Yet, there has been no legal challenge to the California pump regulations. What do we learn from this? The fact that some "companies are just not shipping to CA" in and of itself is not dispositive.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

Hey everyone,

Apologies for kinda disappearing. Life & esp. business has been extra, extra hectic lately (which is mostly good!!) but my free time for non-work-related stuff is next to nothing.

I should have some time the next few days to review & reply more to some of the posts that seemed to mention me.

I just hate when someone starts a thread & just disappears. Sorry to do it here. Definitely not my intent.

Thanks for the great discussion!

 

[colddeadhands916]

I'm disppointed that you haven't read Heller and Bruen, the two most important firearms decisions, both penned by conservatives and both clear that background checks are not infringement, licenses are not infringement and that 2a rights are not unlimited. They have also in later cases said that ghost gun parts kits are de facto firearms subject to the same rules as firearms and that a restraining order by a court is enough to take someones guns. You can say what you want about your personal beliefs, I probably agree with you as far as what I would want for gun regulation, but the "shall not be infringed" idea that you have is a complete fantasy, it doesn't mean what you think it does. Unless of course the SC says it does, but that's not going to happen.

Its a 165 page document, I skimmed it. Why dont you cite the actual parts which youre talking about?

A very large chunk of the users on this website (and r/caguns) voted for Kamala/Walz, Gavin Newsom, and the rest of the gun grabbers. And they would do it again in a heartbeat.

As I've stated before, there are no Democrat 2A single issue voters, because if that was the case, they would never be a Democrat. This means that every Democrat voter in this website places other issues above the 2A, or some combination of issues totaling more to their personal view than the 2A itself.

And I agree that the Republicans are total idiots, who when give power to actually solve 2A issues, do absolutely nothing.

Thanks for looking out, i probably would have just kept arguing like they could be reachable. But they’re like the members of that subreddit with left wingers who are gun owners - pure cope and justification and double think. You seem like one of the only people with some sense here.

i just cant understand being so misguided as to vote for the big D unless I was just being an accellerationist or a woman or a minority or extremely lazy and wanting free healthcare with no conceptualization as to why socialism and keynesism are terrible and perpetuate the systems that keep the elite ultra-wealthy or the awareness to realize that its manifesting a two-tiered justice system that they will be on the wrong side of.

 

[doser]

Hey everyone,

Apologies for kinda disappearing. Life & esp. business has been extra, extra hectic lately (which is mostly good!!) but my free time for non-work-related stuff is next to nothing.

I should have some time the next few days to review & reply more to some of the posts that seemed to mention me.

I just hate when someone starts a thread & just disappears. Sorry to do it here. Definitely not my intent.

Thanks for the great discussion!

Speaking of which, what happened to the work you were doing on CGN? We all get busy.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Its a 165 page document, I skimmed it. Why dont you cite the actual parts which youre talking about?

Thanks for looking out, i probably would have just kept arguing like they could be reachable. But they’re like the members of that subreddit with left wingers who are gun owners - pure cope and justification and double think. You seem like one of the only people with some sense here.

i just cant understand being so misguided as to vote for the big D unless I was just being an accellerationist or a woman or a minority or extremely lazy and wanting free healthcare with no conceptualization as to why socialism and keynesism are terrible and perpetuate the systems that keep the elite ultra-wealthy or the awareness to realize that its manifesting a two-tiered justice system that they will be on the wrong side of.

Read Kavanaugh's opinion in Bruen.

 

[five.five-six]

This is what happens when the NSDAP enjoys single party rule over california for 50 years

This it the obvious part:




The part the never expected President Trump to expose

The democrat party literally funds the KKK so they can blame it on MAGA and the morons stupid enough to march no kings and still voted for Kamala after she was anointed without an election eat this garbage up. As a nation, we are doomed by the knuckle draining smooth brained mouth breathers who vote.

 

[five.five-six]

The state (california) has been run by the NSDAP since Reagan left office. People comply because they don’t want to be thrown in a boxcar headed to the delousing showers.


Don’t fool yourself, most democrats will sent all their political opponents here the second they could get away with it.

 

[badsushi]

There's updates on AB 2571 on the California Rifle and Pistol Association (CRPA) website: https://crpa.org/?s=AB+2571

There's info on AB1263 also at CRPA: https://crpa.org/?s=AB1263

So. Not only have I given you information regarding law status and challenges... I've given you what is probably the single best tool available to fight these laws.

The California Rifle and Pistol Association (CRPA).

Join if you haven't. Upgrade your membership if you're already a member. Contribute funds. Volunteer to help the organization.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) is another fine resource. The new leadership has cleaned house, and the organization is something all gun owners can get behind. Donate, join, volunteer.

The ball is in your court.

Why not join GOA?

 

[ikeo1]

This is what happens when the NSDAP enjoys single party rule over california for 50 years

This it the obvious part:

View attachment 183415


The part the never expected President Trump to expose

The democrat party literally funds the KKK so they can blame it on MAGA and the morons stupid enough to march no kings and still voted for Kamala after she was anointed without an election eat this garbage up. As a nation, we are doomed by the knuckle draining smooth brained mouth breathers who vote.

View attachment 183416

What does this have to do with this thread?

 

[five.five-six]

What does this have to do with this thread?

Everything.

 

[ikeo1]

Everything.

Be specific if you can otherwise it seems like you’re blaming everything in life on democrats and maga’s don’t stink.

If you don’t have something specific, it will be removed. Articulate the actual things being done not hand wavy political issues with your opposing political party.

As I’ve showed you before, this type of generalization has led to threats which we’ve had to report where people take this to another level because they have a general gripe that has nothing to do with the specific bills

 

[five.five-six]

Be specific if you can otherwise it seems like you’re blaming everything in life on democrats and maga’s don’t stink.

If you don’t have something specific, it will be removed. Articulate the actual things being done not hand wavy political issues with your opposing political party.

As I’ve showed you before, this type of generalization has led to threats which we’ve had to report where people take this to another level because they have a general gripe that has nothing to do with the specific bills

Thread title:

Where & how to fight, undermine, overturn AB 1263, 2571 + SB 704?!? These can NOT be allowed to stand​

Sun Tzu, the art of war

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.




If we really want to fight AB 1263 and SB704 it is counter productive to not have an objective understanding of what they are and what their intended purposes are and who is implementing them. If you really believe 1263 and 704 are to “save the children” or “to make the streets safer” we have already lost.

So yes, my post has everything to do with the thread. Strategizing how to comply with unconstitutional laws isn’t fighting those laws anymore than an enslaved negro learning to read and keeping it a secret was fighting slavery.

 

[ikeo1]

Thread title:

Where & how to fight, undermine, overturn AB 1263, 2571 + SB 704?!? These can NOT be allowed to stand​

Sun Tzu, the art of war

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.




If we really want to fight AB 1263 and SB704 it is counter productive to not have an objective understanding of what they are and what their intended purposes are and who is implementing them. If you really believe 1263 and 704 are to “save the children” or “to make the streets safer” we have already lost.

So yes, my post has everything to do with the thread. Strategizing how to comply with unconstitutional laws isn’t fighting those laws anymore than an enslaved negro learning to read and keeping it a secret was fighting slavery.

Where is the strategy? I subscribe to Sun Tzu’s philosophy but I do not see any action or actual strategizing for real change. I see blame and complaining. You can see here we’re continuing to grow with the next stop at 50k members.

If your original post you talk about the KKK and Kamala and Dems, how does that relate to actual bill changes?

Strategy is long term, you have to have a plan to build your base and make fundamental changes. How does what you say change the status quo?

Demonizing the opposing party in a state where that party dominates seems like a poor strategy IMHO. The polarity forces people to choose a position and blame only anchors that position further. I think you can see that already with your own position. People have to be flexible if you want to make changes but that takes time.