Signed up for Range Officer Class, August Targetmasters

[RustVendor]

The test is not hard but it is somewhat tedious and easy to miss important details if you’re not paying close attention. Whether or not you’re using AI it still hammers down the point looking up in the rule book, regardless of what people let pass at local matches.

I believe I got a perfect score but almost missed one because I wrote down the wrong subsection of a very similar answer.

Luckily, they account for most of the instances where there’s 2 answers to the same question.

looking it up yourself is the process of learning, by doing less work you engage with the material less. This is a big thing at my work where management keeps bringing up how we should use AI to help us write documents. But These are technical documents and even if I were just reviewing what the computer wrote, I can't effectively review it without engaging with the material. The process of writing is how you engage with the material, its not enough just to read it quickly at the end. There's no shortcuts, it's about the time spent thinking about the topic. just sayin

 

[john_marsten_1873]

looking it up yourself is the process of learning, by doing less work you engage with the material less. This is a big thing at my work where management keeps bringing up how we should use AI to help us write documents. But These are technical documents and even if I were just reviewing what the computer wrote, I can't effectively review it without engaging with the material. The process of writing is how you engage with the material, its not enough just to read it quickly at the end. There's no shortcuts, it's about the time spent thinking about the topic. just sayin

I'm not saying to go along with whatever the AI says. I'm saying the opposite - because let's face it, most folks are likely to use AI on the test - that if you do use AI, confirm it's response with the latest version of the rulebook. I go to the PDF version on my phone when I'm at the range so I don't need to train flipping through pages.

Furthermore, application and implementation is the process of learning. You actually have to RO, and learn to pay attention to all the various things going on - keeping everyone safe, most importantly - for the rulebook to make sense.

You might need need to make a few incorrect calls and be somewhat embarrassed to understand that the [most recent version of] the rulebook is the source of truth not, just what people say. That's the most important thing I got out of the test.

In reality, you really just need to keep in short-term memory a few of the most common things like safety rules, procedurals, scoring (and any recent changes)...and then be able to quickly lookup a rules that are less common. You don't need to memorize the whole book or all the latest rule changes. If you're on the range and AI or PDF search gets you to the rule you need quickly, use it (confirming it in your rulebook first, of course)!

There's a difference between blindly trusting AI to do all the work and using it to help you get to the answer or synthesize information quicker.

 

[RustVendor]

I'm not saying to go along with whatever the AI says. I'm saying the opposite - because let's face it, most folks are likely to use AI on the test - that if you do use AI, confirm it's response with the latest version of the rulebook. I go to the PDF version on my phone when I'm at the range so I don't need to train flipping through pages.

Furthermore, application and implementation is the process of learning. You actually have to RO, and learn to pay attention to all the various things going on - keeping everyone safe, most importantly - for the rulebook to make sense.

You might need need to make a few incorrect calls and be somewhat embarrassed to understand that the [most recent version of] the rulebook is the source of truth not, just what people say. That's the most important thing I got out of the test.

In reality, you really just need to keep in short-term memory a few of the most common things like safety rules, procedurals, scoring (and any recent changes)...and then be able to quickly lookup a rules that are less common. You don't need to memorize the whole book or all the latest rule changes. If you're on the range and AI or PDF search gets you to the rule you need quickly, use it (confirming it in your rulebook first, of course)!

There's a difference between blindly trusting AI to do all the work and using it to help you get to the answer or synthesize information quicker.

most people using AI on the test? humanity is absolutely F-ed.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

most people using AI on the test? humanity is absolutely F-ed.

If you don't actually confirm and read the rule the AI gives you for the RO exam there's actually a good possibility of failing the test. It will often reference responses from cached questions or look up older versions of the rulebook. Still, it will get you to the rule or close to it faster in most cases.

Blindly trusting AI to generate answers or content along with avoiding all together is problematic. Learning how to use it effectively, to help you solve bigger, more important problems is what's needed for jobs of the future.

Brown Professor Suspects Most of His Class Used AI to Cheat

Brown University leaders’ response to the alleged cheating incident has been “meek,” the professor said.

www.insidehighered.com

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

The NROI class is 2 days and you have to take an annual on-line exam to retain your certification. Covers a lot of the pesky rules in the USPSA rule book. Oriented more to running a stage than safety, though safety is a part of the class.

NRA-RSO class is up to 9 hours and only focuses on safety, though covers many different types of firearms. You keep your certification as long as you keep paying your instructor fee.

Both have benefits if you want to be a USPSA RO.

So, what more can you do being NROI certified compared to NRA RSO; USPSA wise? NROI; can you host the event and also shoot by yourself on your own practice bay? Can you still RSO at a USPSA or IDPA event with just the basic NRA RSO certification; or is it practice days only?

Is the initial in class NROI test open book like the NRA RSO course? Do they allow you to discuss amongst your colleagues and fellow class mates for the questions to the test?

For your NRA RSO course did they also go over what to say IF there is ever an accidental/negligent discharge which involves an injury; say it was a “training accident”, NOT “a shooting” (so most of the force doesn’t arrive).

I’m also surprised that the NRA made it where you pretty much need to be a member to get that good price to renew RSO cert; without membership I remember seeing $150-$160 range (basically over $100 is my point). Seems like they just want more people to join?

I was able to be the timer guy recently at a first timer ladies shoot instruction event; the group was pretty safe overall. Tasks were mainly be a clock watcher, let the instructors who were also RSO’s of a 2 minute warning, 1 minute warning, and that it’s time to rotate; while being loud, I really needed to use my dim sum restaurant voice level (exact opposite voice level I would use in a hotel), and physically touching each instructor on the shoulder to confirm that they heard me. I’m surprised they had one RSO, not rotate, and stay with a senior lady who had trouble shooting; when the RSO was the one with the 43x. I think they should have put that senior lady with someone with a full size handgun, the RSO with the CZ shadow 2, .22lr handgun or long gun, or even the 9mm pcc.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

So, what more can you do being NROI certified compared to NRA RSO; USPSA wise? NROI; can you host the event and also shoot by yourself on your own practice bay? Can you still RSO at a USPSA or IDPA event with just the basic NRA RSO certification; or is it practice days only?

Is the initial in class NROI test open book like the NRA RSO course? Do they allow you to discuss amongst your colleagues and fellow class mates for the questions to the test?

For your NRA RSO course did they also go over what to say IF there is ever an accidental/negligent discharge which involves an injury; say it was a “training accident”, NOT “a shooting” (so most of the force doesn’t arrive).

I’m also surprised that the NRA made it where you pretty much need to be a member to get that good price to renew RSO cert; without membership I remember seeing $150-$160 range (basically over $100 is my point). Seems like they just want more people to join?

I was able to be the timer guy at a first timer ladies shoot instruction event; they were pretty safe overall. I just needed to let the instructors who were also RSO’s, of a 2 minute warning, 1 minute warning, and that it’s time to rotate; while being loud and physically touching each instructor on the shoulder to make sure they heard me.

The NRA RSO, NROI RO/IDPA SO certifications have very little overlap. For the most part the NROI/IDPA is the requirement to RO/SO at major matches.

Many clubs don't even require the [active] certification to RO at local matches but it depends on the club and the type of match.

Local club rules determine whether you're able to use the action bays on private time, and that more so depends on volunteering and being active in the club. Some require that you have a minimum of NROI CRO (aka RO2), some require RO1 with NRA RSO but it really depends on the club.

NROI/IDPA does not certify RSO work at static ranges. It covers safety, rules and scoring when running competitors through competition stages. For example, you won't go through all the different types of firearms and actions, cease fire periods...like you do with RSO.

The exam is take home, open book, online where you have something like 30 days to complete after the course. It's meant to be individual and the questions and order are different from exam to exam.

 

[RustVendor]

If you don't actually confirm and read the rule the AI gives you for the RO exam there's actually a good possibility of failing the test. It will often reference responses from cached questions or look up older versions of the rulebook. Still, it will get you to the rule or close to it faster in most cases.

Blindly trusting AI to generate answers or content along with avoiding all together is problematic. Learning how to use it effectively, to help you solve bigger, more important problems is what's needed for jobs of the future.

Brown Professor Suspects Most of His Class Used AI to Cheat

Brown University leaders’ response to the alleged cheating incident has been “meek,” the professor said.

www.insidehighered.com

Well most people blindly trust the AI, that's the problem. I still think engaging with the material and looking it up yourself is better for learning the material. the NROI test is basic, you aren't doing a higher level thinking exercise, it's the the rules of a shooting sport. But let's say for programming, programmers have been writing scrpits for a long time to write code faster. The issue though is the more code that's written by an LLM, the less capable the coder is to review it. So when things go wrong, which they will, the coder then has to learn it to the level that they would have in order to write it. It's debatable if time was saved. The tool has certain utility but AI as such doesn't actually exist, AI collects the work of humans, it's the human work that matters and only a human can review the work and decide if it's right. so I agree with you to an extent that it can be useful but for instance Google and the Internet made the average person dumber. They decided they don't need to know or remember anything anymore because you can just look it up. Using chat or Claude is the next level of that where the average user is asking it what to wear or how to think or even having romantic relationships with the algorithm. But they aren't smart or engaged enough to know if the advice given or the thing they googled is actually correct.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Well most people blindly trust the AI, that's the problem. I still think engaging with the material and looking it up yourself is better for learning the material. the NROI test is basic, you aren't doing a higher level thinking exercise, it's the the rules of a shooting sport. But let's say for programming, programmers have been writing scrpits for a long time to write code faster. The issue though is the more code that's written by an LLM, the less capable the coder is to review it. So when things go wrong, which they will, the coder then has to learn it to the level that they would have in order to write it. It's debatable if time was saved. The tool has certain utility but AI as such doesn't actually exist, AI collects the work of humans, it's the human work that matters and only a human can review the work and decide if it's right. so I agree with you to an extent that it can be useful but for instance Google and the Internet made the average person dumber. They decided they don't need to know or remember anything anymore because you can just look it up. Using chat or Claude is the next level of that where the average user is asking it what to wear or how to think or even having romantic relationships with the algorithm. But they aren't smart or engaged enough to know if the advice given or the thing they googled is actually correct.

I don’t want to sabotage the conversation and get away from the NROI cert. I’m open to chatting in separate thread about AI but I’ll just say this for now:

I’m a software engineer and AI writes 99% of my code since ~February of this year. I and most folks are learning that our job is actually to build software tools and products, not write code. Part of this shift has been about learning how to use AI efficiently and effectively as I described earlier.

 

[RustVendor]

I don’t want to sabotage the conversation and get away from the NROI cert. I’m open to chatting in separate thread about AI but I’ll just say this for now:

I’m a software engineer and AI writes 99% of my code since ~February of this year. I and most folks are learning that our job is actually to build software tools and products, not write code. Part of this shift has been about learning how to use AI efficiently and effectively as I described earlier.

yes that's all fine, I am more pointing out it's use in learning and things like using it to take a test. I like Jaron Laniers take on AI https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-artificial-intelligence/there-is-no-ai
There is no AI because AI is taking work that has already been done by humans. We may reach a point where it's creating actual original work that matters and not just remixes, and Lanier seems much more interested in that original work than me, but for now it's a tool and not a living entity, which I'm sure you agree with. To bring it back to the RO process, the part I see as problematic will be the time when we have an AI RO and since shooters aren't as engaged, they don't know the rules as well. It's the overreliance on technology that disengages us. In a shooting context, it could be less safe, in other contexts we will be stupider and disconnected. Either way I would highly suggest others not use it on the NROI test

 

[john_marsten_1873]

yes that's all fine, I am more pointing out it's use in learning and things like using it to take a test. I like Jaron Laniers take on AI https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-artificial-intelligence/there-is-no-ai
There is no AI because AI is taking work that has already been done by humans. We may reach a point where it's creating actual original work that matters and not just remixes, and Lanier seems much more interested in that original work than me, but for now it's a tool and not a living entity, which I'm sure you agree with. To bring it back to the RO process, the part I see as problematic will be the time when we have an AI RO and since shooters aren't as engaged, they don't know the rules as well. It's the overreliance on technology that disengages us. In a shooting context, it could be less safe, in other contexts we will be stupider and disconnected. Either way I would highly suggest others not use it on the NROI test

I can't wait for AI RO's! Then each match can have like 20 stages. No more (or far less) scoring, taping, arguing...and especially waiting 45-1 hour, only to shoot for ~30 secs; abstract away all the repetitive work that's merely a dependency of the work I actually want to do.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

I can't wait for AI RO's! Then each match can have like 20 stages. No more (or far less) scoring, taping, arguing...and especially waiting 45-1 hour, only to shoot for ~30 secs; abstract away all the repetitive work that's merely a dependency of the work I actually want to do.

I'm waiting for AI drones/tapers/RO's lol. Heck, while we're at it AI drones to setup and take down the match. Shoot, might as well have your own AI/Drone shoot the match for you while you're at it

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I'm waiting for AI drones/tapers/RO's lol. Heck, while we're at it AI drones to setup and take down the match. Shoot, might as well have your own AI/Drone shoot the match for you while you're at it

I love it! Don't forget the drones to pickup brass - and maybe reload and deliver them to stages. I just want to shoot a case of ammo each match

 

[Brandon Breeze]

We could be so efficient that we could probably shoot the match twice in two different divisions each time. Heck yeah!

 

[RustVendor]

I can't wait for AI RO's! Then each match can have like 20 stages. No more (or far less) scoring, taping, arguing...and especially waiting 45-1 hour, only to shoot for ~30 secs; abstract away all the repetitive work that's merely a dependency of the work I actually want to do.

I could definitely get behind ai tapers

 

[northbay shooter]

I wish I could get a spot at Targetmasters. I shoot all over CA but I want to see what it’s like there in Davis.

If you want to shoot TargetMasters, you need to be a member. Their registration via Practiscore is private. The order of registration goes, 1. MD and Stage Designers, 2. CRO's, 3. RO's, 4. Members, 5. General Public. 95% of matches are full with the CRO list. If you show up to help build on a Saturday, you get some preference either in that match or the next match.

 

[FriedChickies]

If you want to shoot TargetMasters, you need to be a member. Their registration via Practiscore is private. The order of registration goes, 1. MD and Stage Designers, 2. CRO's, 3. RO's, 4. Members, 5. General Public. 95% of matches are full with the CRO list. If you show up to help build on a Saturday, you get some preference either in that match or the next match.

Yeah I’ve received their emails. It’s the same with DAP and Richmond.

Targetmaster stages to be blunt haven’t impressed me at all from what I’ve seen on social media, so I’ve invested minimal effort getting into their matches.

 

[northbay shooter]

Yeah I’ve received their emails. It’s the same with DAP and Richmond.

Targetmaster stages to be blunt haven’t impressed me at all from what I’ve seen on social media, so I’ve invested minimal effort getting into their matches.

Yes, TM stages are pretty simple and set up so that can be shot twice (different target sets) so you get 6 stages from a 3 bay range. I look at it like a more structured or pressured practice. Richmond is like a level 2 twice a month. DAP is a standard level 1. I have not shot DAP in a while so really can't comment other than that.

 

[EliteArmoryCV]

If there's one thing I took away from my NROI class, it's "how to use and find stuff in the rulebook." Every call, every issue, everytime tells you to do something - look it up in the rulebook and use that to defend your position. Expect a long classroom portion and a little bit of practical application on a mock stage.

Some of the other key stuff I picked up:
- there's a 1-2 degree buffer zone on the 180
- RO's aren't there to ruin peoples' days - follow the rules, but advocate for the shooter wherever possible
- be sure to put some distance between the shooter and the timer during unload and show clear, it's very possible to pick up slide racking on the mic and screw somebody's times

Happy Range Lawyering!

 

[Experimentalist]

I'm waiting for AI drones/tapers/RO's lol. Heck, while we're at it AI drones to setup and take down the match. Shoot, might as well have your own AI/Drone shoot the match for you while you're at it

This will work out well...

 

[Experimentalist]

- be sure to put some distance between the shooter and the timer during unload and show clear, it's very possible to pick up slide racking on the mic and screw somebody's times

I was taught to put the timer behind my back after last shot was fired to mitigate against this. Works well, and I can still give good supervision to the shooter, particularly when inspecting chambers.