Question My FFL said this is illegal

[grandpapeepap]

Gotta love our justice system. Guilty of a crime before even committing it.

gotta love it when stuff like this happens too

A California man sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.

www.mercurynews.com

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.


Federal authorities preferred to let Roh go free rather than have the ruling become final and potentially create case law that could have a crippling effect on the enforcement of gun laws, several sources familiar with the matter told CNN. Each requested anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the case and its possible implications.

 

[Gawernator]

I'm referring to constructive intent as a whole. The idea that someone can be sent to prison for "potentially" planning to commit a crime in the future is some minority report crap. Until they have actually assembled those parts into an illegal firearm, they shouldn't be able to be arrested for anything. And that's not even mentioning the fact that these gun laws are pure unconstitutional BS in the first place and we shouldn't have to worry about a rifle barrel being to short.

You are not understanding the case. He was convicted on ATTEMPT, and he admitted to the police he intended to create an AW. How is that minority report? He literally admitted to the crime. Yeah they should not even be in place but there is NOTHING from this case that would say you go to prison for mere possession of a 7.5" upper. He had an entire kit, had already started building it, he was a convicted violent criminal that admitted his intent was to build an AW. Do you not see how that is different or...?

 

[grandpapeepap]

also conspiracy to commit a crime does exist and im not sure i would call that minority report stuff, then again thats kind of neither here nor there with the current discussion

 

[Gawernator]

gotta love it when stuff like this happens too

A California man sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.

www.mercurynews.com

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.


Federal authorities preferred to let Roh go free rather than have the ruling become final and potentially create case law that could have a crippling effect on the enforcement of gun laws, several sources familiar with the matter told CNN. Each requested anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the case and its possible implications.

He had great defense attorneys

 

[psun786]

WE NEED A NAME, get them blacklisted from hopsings

This! We already have the nails and cross ready!

 

[grandpapeepap]

He had great defense attorneys

This is why I have a friend who is an attorney and enjoys firearms. Gotta make friends with the right people. As well as a general attorney for stuff

 

[GeeQ87]

This is why I have a friend who is an attorney and enjoys firearms. Gotta make friends with the right people. As well as a general attorney for stuff

Agreed, I have a couple of those

This! We already have the nails and cross ready!

 

[RickD427]

You’re conflating two different concepts.

I already acknowledged that PC 664 can support an attempt theory. Nobody is saying the absence of a constructive-possession clause gives someone immunity if the evidence shows intent plus a direct step toward manufacturing or possessing an illegal assault weapon.

But Nguyen was not a generic constructive-possession case. It was an attempt case with terrible facts. He had an AK parts kit, had taken assembly steps, and, most importantly, admitted to law enforcement that he intended to build/possess the illegal assault weapon. That admission is doing a lot of work in the case.

Attempt requires specific intent plus an act beyond mere preparation. Nguyen had both. That is very different from someone merely owning lawful feature parts that have lawful uses.

Calling Nguyen “essentially constructive possession” muddies the issue. The prosecution could not prove actual possession of a completed AW, so it proceeded under attempt. That does not create a general rule that loose parts automatically equal possession of an assault weapon.

The correct statement is narrow: parts plus admitted intent plus conduct beyond preparation can support an attempted AW theory under PC 664. The incorrect overbroad forum version is that California has a general constructive-possession doctrine for AW parts. It does not.

So yes, Nguyen is a cautionary case. No, it does not mean a pistol grip, flash hider, upper, stock, or other lawful component sitting unassembled in a parts bin is automatically criminal. The legal issue is the totality of facts showing attempted manufacture or attempted possession, not mere ownership of parts.

Also worth noting: Nguyen was not some clean-record guy who accidentally had a grip and flash hider in a parts bin. He had a prior juvenile aggravated-assault adjudication that was treated as a strike, plus the AK kit/partial assembly facts, plus statements showing intent.

That does not make the case irrelevant, but it makes it a very poor case to generalize into “loose parts = constructive possession.” Nguyen is basically the nightmare fact pattern, not the ordinary lawful-owner fact pattern.

All good points, but you gotta remember that once the Court of Appeals publishes a case that was based on an unsavory defendant (like Mr. Nguyen), the resulting case law applies equally to the upstanding Eagle Scout.

 

[grandpapeepap]

All good points, but you gotta remember that once the Court of Appeals publishes a case that was based on an unsavory defendant (like Mr. Nguyen), the resulting case law applies equally to the upstanding Eagle Scout.

Does it also apply to the upstanding quartermaster rank?

 

[BONECUTR]

He was convicted on ATTEMPT

No such crime-Still convicted

and he admitted to the police he intended to create an AW.

By itself not a crime-other than him being a felon

He literally admitted to the crime.

Still not a crime....

admitted his intent was to build an AW.

Not a crime....

This is the point of those you are calling FUDD's.... You can't say something is legal when someone is literally convicted of a crime that didn't exist.
Sure, he was a dumb felon who should of kept his mouth shut but there are plenty of people who will run their mouth when they think there is no law on the books to convict themselves.

 

[ReaperCustom45]

gotta love it when stuff like this happens too

A California man sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.

www.mercurynews.com

A case once touted by prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit firearms factory was suddenly seen as having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.


Federal authorities preferred to let Roh go free rather than have the ruling become final and potentially create case law that could have a crippling effect on the enforcement of gun laws, several sources familiar with the matter told CNN. Each requested anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the case and its possible implications.

I remember that case! Couldn't believe it was real at the time, an honestly kinda surprised the feds didn't try to re-define what a receiver is. That's quite the loophole there and that dude owes his freedom to his lawyer.

You are not understanding the case. He was convicted on ATTEMPT, and he admitted to the police he intended to create an AW. How is that minority report? He literally admitted to the crime. Yeah they should not even be in place but there is NOTHING from this case that would say you go to prison for mere possession of a 7.5" upper. He had an entire kit, had already started building it, he was a convicted violent criminal that admitted his intent was to build an AW. Do you not see how that is different or...?

I do see what you're saying, that case is not "intent" but rather "attempted". Those are two very different things.

 

[weaverftw]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why is a rifle with a short barrel so scary to these people? Do they think someone is going to hide it in their trench coat more easily than a rifle that has an extra 2” of barrel?

 

[grandpapeepap]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why is a rifle with a short barrel so scary to these people? Do they think someone is going to hide it in their trench coat more easily than a rifle that has an extra 2” of barrel?

I mean when the NFA was enacted you had a bunch of gang violence. Like the tommy gun. In fact iirc the NFA was supposed to include pistols as part of it but that was later removed. US v Miller was a travesty on the american public, arguing shortbarrel shotguns didnt have militia use but since Millers lawyers werent at the supreme court only the states arguments were heard.

 

[Gawernator]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why is a rifle with a short barrel so scary to these people? Do they think someone is going to hide it in their trench coat more easily than a rifle that has an extra 2” of barrel?

Old rules based on fear mongering when there was a lot of mob and gang violence and then the laws never get changed or updated.

 

[grandpapeepap]

Also the next time you are able to go shooting on private land, take your car out there and try to aim through the window with a rifle and then an AR pistol and tell me which is easier to maneuver, or dismount from the vehicle

 

[Gawernator]

No such crime-Still convicted

By itself not a crime-other than him being a felon

Still not a crime....

Not a crime....

This is the point of those you are calling FUDD's.... You can't say something is legal when someone is literally convicted of a crime that didn't exist.
Sure, he was a dumb felon who should of kept his mouth shut but there are plenty of people who will run their mouth when they think there is no law on the books to convict themselves.

The law is on the books. This is just wrong. I grow tired.

No, that is not the point.

“Still not a crime” is wrong. Attempt is a crime. PC 664 exists. If the state proves specific intent to commit the target offense plus a direct but ineffective step toward committing it, the completed offense does not need to exist yet.

That is exactly why Nguyen was charged as attempted possession/manufacture rather than actual possession/manufacture of an AW.

 

[Gawernator]

Also the next time you are able to go shooting on private land, take your car out there and try to aim through the window with a rifle and then an AR pistol and tell me which is easier to maneuver, or dismount from the vehicle

Why are people still arguing stuff you can easily just google

And yeah SBR way better for close quarters. That’s why it’s cool and sexy. Just not very critical to us for 99.9% of real life unless I guess you go to war against a mob invading your house

 

[grandpapeepap]

Why are people still arguing stuff you can easily just google

And yeah SBR way better for close quarters. That’s why it’s cool and sexy. Just not very critical to us for 99.9% of real life unless I guess you go to war against a mob invading your house

dont know which parts you think are arguing in this small sample of talking about the nfa but some people like to get to chatting with others vs having google tell them since google search has gone downhill fast. also i brought up using an ar pistol cause ill assume he doesnt have access to an sbr to do the test

 

[TheNotoriousKIM]

Stop dodging, what's the name of the FFL damnit

 

[Gawernator]

Stop dodging, what's the name of the FFL damnit

Asking the real questions. Inb4 he made up this whole fantasy story and it didn’t even happen.