Legality of thermal scopes in CA?

[edrrt]

Frustratingly many of the big manufacturers put out lists by sate for retailers and all list California as:

“California – ILLEGAL, California law considers all night vision or thermal imaging devices for firearms illegal.“

A quick google search yields the same even from law firms.

In however my read of the penal code section 468 which deals with the prohibition of so-called “sniper scopes “ is that a passive night vision or thermal scope will not meet this definition:

“As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a PROJECTED infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator there of to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.”

The key word there is projected inferred light source. Meaning only scopes using inferred illuminators would be prohibited. These are flashlight like devices attached to the system that project IR light.

This law was written at a time when these devices sucked so all of them were equipped with active infrared illuminators.

The vast majority of modern night vision and thermal scopes are passive and do not use a projected infrared light source.

So why are they listed as being illegal in so many seemingly official places? Here a legal firm states that passive thermal would be illegal because it could be construed to project inferred light as well by ‘gathering the inferred light, amplifying it and projecting it towards the observers eye…” Which is totally false.

PC 468 Possession of Night Vision Sniperscope: Law, Punishment & Defense Criminal Defense Attorneys. PC 468, Sniperscope, Night Vision, Rifle, IR, CA, Scope

PC 468 Possession of Night Vision Sniperscope: Law, Punishment & Defense: Misdemeanor Penal Code 468: Snipe Scope w/ Night Vision Penalty CA

www.calcriminaldefenselawyers.com

The idea that they could amplify infrared light and projected towards your eye so that you could see it is ridiculous. No matter how much infrared light it projected at you, you wouldn’t be able to see it. That’s not how these work.

The only light a thermal scope projects is off a AMOLED or LCD screen just like your phone. It’s visible spectrum.

So is passive thermal legal to own or am I wrong?

The amount of misinformation on this seems to be astounding.

 

[9mmContagion]

Just get helmet mounted thermal and nightvision setup…

 

[edrrt]

Just get helmet mounted thermal and nightvision setup…

According to the law firm referenced above night vision and helmet mounted monoculars are illegal too. Read their examples. A night vision scope detects inferred light too. And any monocular, according to them, could be considered to be adaptable to a firearm. You could simply duct tape it and is constructive possession.

There is so much bad information here.

But going back to my original question: Is there any legal argument for passive thermal or night vision to be illegal?

The above PC pretty clearly states projected IR light source. As NV detects IR light too I would think anything that applies to thermal applies to NV too.

 

[DRH50BMG]

You are correct in your interpretation of the CA law as it is currently written. Buy all the advantages (drone, body armor, passive night vision) you can while they are still legal.

This would be an entry level thermal scope-

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1806226-REG/agm_314204550204r231_agm_rattlerv2_25_384_thermal.html

 

[joefrank64k]

OP, the way the section is written if you don't have an IR illuminator, you're good.

Getting OoS vendors to see it that way is a whole other issue, haha!!

And then there's the old "there are 58 counties in CA" argument. Meaning, how 2A friendly/unfriendly is the DA in your county/the county you're using the equipment in?? Is that DA likely to file on you if you were caught with a thermal scope?

My $0.02 (and worth exactly that, haha!!): I'm not worried about it. None of my thermal/NV stuff uses active IR illumination.

 

[D.A.V.I.D.]

You can't hunt anything with any of them in California if that's what you're hoping to do.

 

[RickD427]

Your interpretation of the statute is right on point.

But it's important to note the effect of "Abundance of Caution." Given the risks of lawsuit and prosecution, a lot of vendors will stay far away from the boundaries of the law and will decline, as a matter of business risk, not to engage in sales that could even remotely be viewed as illegal. The simple fact is that a vendor loses a couple of tons of money when they lose a lawsuit and only a ton of money if they win. They only lose potential sales if they don't play the game.

The letter of PC 468 only bans active IR scopes. But the spirit of PC 468 appears to be the prevention of electronically aided scopes. At the time of enactment, those scopes were as described. Since that time technology has moved on to passive IR and thermal devices. The vendors you mention are going by the spirit of the law.

 

[edrrt]

You can't hunt anything with any of them in California if that's what you're hoping to do.

Well that’s a separate topic. I’m also researching. As long as you’re legally allowed to shoot it at night why would it be illegal to use passive Night vision?

While Fish and Game Code FGC 2005 expressly prohibits using night vision equipment section (d) of that code states: “This code shall not apply to any of the following… (7) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner's employee, while on that land.”

Thus it seems like passive NV or thermal would could legal for coyotes in circumstances where they can be taken at night for land owners or their designated employees on agricultural properties?

T14 CFR 474 Hours for taking: Non game mammals may be taken at any time… with some caveats in specific restricted areas.

 

[Dvrjon]

nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

Neither of those is defined, so as long as you are doing scientific research or using it for educational purposes, you should be good.

 

[OlderThanDirt]

This has been discussed endlessly on Calguns. As posted by Quiet:

CA laws/regulations summary on night vision devices...

Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal

Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal

Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Using any "night vision equipment" to hunt or aid in hunting = illegal [FGC 2005(c)]



Penal Code 468
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

Fish & Game Code 2005
(a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of a game bird, game mammal, or game fish.
(b) It is unlawful for one or more persons to throw or cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on a highway or in a field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found, or upon a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess night vision equipment to assist in the taking of a bird, mammal, amphibian, reptile, or fish. For purposes of this subdivision, “night vision equipment” includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) An infrared or similar light, used in connection with an electronic viewing device.
(2) An optical device, including, but not limited to, binoculars or a scope, that uses electrical or battery powered light amplifying circuits.
(d) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(1) Sport fishing in ocean waters, or other waters where night fishing is permitted, if an artificial light is not used on or as part of the fishing tackle.
(2) Commercial fishing.
(3) The taking of mammals governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section 4180) of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
(4) The use of a hand-held flashlight that is no larger and emits no more light than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, and is not affixed to a weapon.
(5) The use of a lamp or lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
(6) Headlights of a motor vehicle that are operated in a usual manner and without attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal.
(7) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on that land.
(8) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on land controlled by the owner in connection with the agricultural industry.
(9) Other uses as the commission may authorize by regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section except by a peace officer.

 

[joefrank64k]

This has been discussed endlessly on Calguns. As posted by Quiet:

CA laws/regulations summary on night vision devices...

Active IR scope with magnification = illegal [PC 468]
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal

Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal [PC 468]
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal

Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

Using any "night vision equipment" to hunt or aid in hunting = illegal [FGC 2005(c)]



Penal Code 468
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

Fish & Game Code 2005
(a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of a game bird, game mammal, or game fish.
(b) It is unlawful for one or more persons to throw or cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on a highway or in a field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found, or upon a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess night vision equipment to assist in the taking of a bird, mammal, amphibian, reptile, or fish. For purposes of this subdivision, “night vision equipment” includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) An infrared or similar light, used in connection with an electronic viewing device.
(2) An optical device, including, but not limited to, binoculars or a scope, that uses electrical or battery powered light amplifying circuits.
(d) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(1) Sport fishing in ocean waters, or other waters where night fishing is permitted, if an artificial light is not used on or as part of the fishing tackle.
(2) Commercial fishing.
(3) The taking of mammals governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section 4180) of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
(4) The use of a hand-held flashlight that is no larger and emits no more light than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, and is not affixed to a weapon.
(5) The use of a lamp or lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
(6) Headlights of a motor vehicle that are operated in a usual manner and without attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal.
(7) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on that land.
(8) An owner of land devoted to the agricultural industry, or the owner’s employee, while on land controlled by the owner in connection with the agricultural industry.
(9) Other uses as the commission may authorize by regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section except by a peace officer.

@OlderThanDirt thanks for finding that and posting. I sure wish Quiet was around these parts. I miss his ultra-detailed replies, haha!!

 

[ikeo1]

@OlderThanDirt thanks for finding that and posting. I sure wish Quiet was around these parts. I miss his ultra-detailed replies, haha!!

Sounds like he’s staying Quiet…

 

[joefrank64k]

Sounds like he’s staying Quiet…

"I'm on all week!!" haha!!

And now I want to get one of those AGM's @DRH50BMG linked to, haha!!

 

[Radman64]

The whole thing of IR to me is at one neat but secondly when would I ever use it mounted to a firearm being a civilian now living in the Bay Area lol.
I have a really cool hand held Konus IR monocular. I guess in a pinch I would be able to see where the bad guys are coming from.

 

[OlderThanDirt]

The whole thing of IR to me is at one neat but secondly when would I ever use it mounted to a firearm being a civilian now living in the Bay Area lol.
I have a really cool hand held Konus IR monocular. I guess in a pinch I would be able to see where the bad guys are coming from.

Someone didn't get the memo.