Confusing California laws once again.

[Plenty_Pack_556]

You get a Cease-and-Desist order by mail. That's when you know you got on their radar.

In other news, just looked through and organized all my firearm transactions/ approved dros papers since '18. It fills 2 - 3" binders. And i only have 2 handful of firearms to show for it.

 

[Hit Factor]

Nope. Transmutation requires a written document. CA Family Code 852.

He’s not talking about converting community property to separate property. He’s just giving the guns to his wife to sell.

 

[jason_hy]

See sections 26500 and 26585 of the penal code: A person who has a FFL03 and a CoE can deliver A CURIO AND RELIC (not a modern firearm!) to a dealer without limitations. I think for deliveries directly from one collector (FFL03) to another (without going through a dealer), the exemption in 26585 does not apply, so that seems to be limited to 5 sales per year.

If someone can find another exemption for FFL03, please post it.

Thanks for your info. The limitait is hard to reduce collections.

You get a Cease-and-Desist order by mail. That's when you know you got on their radar.

In other news, just looked through and organized all my firearm transactions/ approved dros papers since '18. It fills 2 - 3" binders. And i only have 2 handful of firearms to show for it.

that needs a response. Do they really issue such order without a warning ?

 

[treelogger]

He’s not talking about converting community property to separate property. He’s just giving the guns to his wife to sell.

That requires an OpLaw form to be filled with the state DoJ, see PC 27875(a)(3). And it also must be "infrequent", meaning it counts towards the limit of 5 per year; see 27875(a)(1).

There is a very interesting question, namely whether guns can be community property in California or not. One side of the argument is that in most cases, most property acquired by a married couple is automatically community property. The other side of the argument is that guns are titled (like real estate or vehicles), and the California DROS system and underlying law does not allow that title to be held by two individuals (unlike real estate or vehicles, where they can be, and in the case of real estate by default are unless explicitly stated and signed off otherwise). I've never seen that conundrum fully explained in a legal text, but I think the answer is roughly the following: While only one spouse is listed on the DROS and AFS paperwork, the value of the gun is usually held jointly; in case the assets need to be separated (like in a divorce), one side will get the gun, the other side will have to be reimbursed for half the value.

 

[Hit Factor]

That requires an OpLaw form to be filled with the state DoJ, see PC 27875(a)(3). And it also must be "infrequent", meaning it counts towards the limit of 5 per year; see 27875(a)(1).

There is a very interesting question, namely whether guns can be community property in California or not. One side of the argument is that in most cases, most property acquired by a married couple is automatically community property. The other side of the argument is that guns are titled (like real estate or vehicles), and the California DROS system and underlying law does not allow that title to be held by two individuals (unlike real estate or vehicles, where they can be, and in the case of real estate by default are unless explicitly stated and signed off otherwise). I've never seen that conundrum fully explained in a legal text, but I think the answer is roughly the following: While only one spouse is listed on the DROS and AFS paperwork, the value of the gun is usually held jointly; in case the assets need to be separated (like in a divorce), one side will get the gun, the other side will have to be reimbursed for half the value.

I responded to similar assertions earlier, noting the difference between claims made by search engine lawyers in internet forums like this and what actually occurs in real world practice, but a moderator deleted it all after unilaterally deeming my response to constitute “unnecessary comments.”

 

[GiveMeMo2A]

There is a very interesting question, namely whether guns can be community property in California or not.

Curiously, RAW as implemented is as if it is community property. Both a husband and a wife register and are co equals. I had assumed they would only permit the owner, the single real person in control. Something goes wrong, the single person is where to start an investigation.

 

[treelogger]

Curiously, RAW as implemented is as if it is community property. Both a husband and a wife register and are co equals. I had assumed they would only permit the owner, the single real person in control. Something goes wrong, the single person is where to start an investigation.

Indeed, and for RAW registration you can also add other people, such as children. However, a RAW registration is not any indication of ownership. But this points out how intellectually confused California gun law is: while it tries to reach a "reasonable" conclusion (such as: AW registration can be passed on to your spouse or children who inherit the AW), it does so without a solid logical base.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

that needs a response. Do they really issue such order without a warning ?

That is the warning.

In order to trigger a look into your history of more than 5, you'd have to buy a model or brand in bulk and sell individually, or you have a history of purchasing only to sell in matter of days repeatedly, or you order a bunch of firearms and instead of taking possession, you sell it direct from a ffl without being an employee, etc.

 

[westsidearms]

You get a Cease-and-Desist order by mail. That's when you know you got on their radar.

I have never heard of the CA BOF issuing "Cease-and-Desist" orders in my 20 years of being active in this community. I smell FUD. The only thing I have ever heard of is when you are worth them doing something about it, they show up and do something about it.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

I have never heard of the CA BOF issuing "Cease-and-Desist" orders in my 20 years of being active in this community. I smell FUD. The only thing I have ever heard of is when you are worth them doing something about it, they show up and do something about it.

Could be. I'm just re-iterating what I heard few years from the big hoop earring youtube guy from Rifle Supply when I asked about the limits while conducting a sell.

But it would not be CA BOF issuing it. It would be the ATF issuing a Cease and Desist for Engaging in the Business.

 

[westsidearms]

Could be. I'm just re-iterating what I heard few years from the big hoop earring youtube guy from Rifle Supply when I asked about the limits while conducting a sell.

But it would not be CA BOF issuing it. It would be the ATF issuing a Cease and Desist for Engaging in the Business.

Turns out you are right that the ATF will serve cease and desist orders. I learn something new all the time.

Unlicensed Dealer Who Straw Purchased, Sold Guns Despite ATF Cease-and-Desist Pleads Guilty | ATF

A Lancaster man who sold more than 50 guns without a license pleaded guilty yesterday to a federal firearm crime, announced U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas Leigha Simonton. Armani Morris, 22, was arrested following an undercover gun buy in July 2022 and indicted in August. He...

www.atf.gov

 

[OlderThanDirt]

I know a couple of old people that sold off large collections. Not a peep from anyone. When indexed for inflation, selling off most older firearms would be considered a loss.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Thanks for the replies everyone appreciate it.... Just out of curiosity.What does happen when you pass the sixth threshold ?....... I continually have people telling me That i'm crazy thinking that you can only do five transfers And that they do more than that all the time.... Does a little red alarm go off in the ffl's store?.... Does it get
Kicked back by the DOJ..... Inquiry reminds would love to know...thanks

I’ve heard from an ffl store before where I was the buyer, they told me that they have had sellers recieve a notice from CA DOJ that says something like they have sold more than 5 transactions in one year, any more sales is engaging in the business of selling firearms and requires an FFL dealer license?

Don’t know how valid or accurate this info is.