Common retailers with “no firearms” signs?

[Glenn B]

This has been addressed in this thread already, but essentially my IA made it a condition of the permit that you not carry in a business that posts such a sign. Whether they can just revoke your permit, or revoke AND charge you with unlicensed carry, is an open question not resolved by precedence.

But your suggestion to slip the loaded gun into a lock box is also not sufficient; by even going into the parking lot I believe you’d have violated the permit conditions already, and then when you left the gun LOADED in the lockbox you’ve committed a separate offense regarding safe storage in a vehicle while unattended (you would’ve had to unload it first).

Crazy that we have to even think about all of this…

There is an exclusion in the law that allows licensed CCW holders to store the gun without unloading it in a DOJ approved lock box not visible within the vehicle in the parking lot of almost at all the sensitive places. So my suggestion is more than sufficient as well as lawful.

This is very handy for instance at the airport when going to pick someone up and going inside the terminal, or going out to eat at a restaurant.

 

[weaverftw]

There is an exclusion in the law that allows licensed CCW holders to store the gun without unloading it in a DOJ approved lock box not visible within the vehicle in the parking lot of almost at all the sensitive places. So my suggestion is more than sufficient as well as lawful.

This is very handy for instance at the airport when going to pick someone up and going inside the terminal, or going out to eat at a restaurant.

Do you know the PC? I’m not being snarky I actually want to find it, this is great to know and wasn’t covered in my CCW class

 

[Glenn B]

Do you know the PC? I’m not being snarky I actually want to find it, this is great to know and wasn’t covered in my CCW class

When I get home later I’ll look it up. It is often not covered because it’s at the end of the penal code section changes under SB 2. Also usually not covered is public thoroughfares though parks. If a park has a road going though it from one entrance to another you can drive through while carrying. You just can’t stop and use the park. Also, bike and pedestrian paths going through parks.

 

[Dvrjon]

Since I have some time, now. To support Glenn B's assertions:

CA PEN 26230. (a) A person granted a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person pursuant to Section 26150, 26155, or 26170 shall not carry a firearm on or into any of the following:
[...]
(c) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), except under paragraph (21) or (28) of subdivision (a), a licensee prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location specified in subdivision (a) shall be allowed to:

(1) Transport a concealed firearm or ammunition within a vehicle into or out of the parking area so long as the firearm is locked in a lock box.

(2) Store ammunition or a firearm within a locked lock box and out of plain view within the vehicle in the parking area. This paragraph does not preempt local laws placing more restrictive requirements upon the storage of firearms in vehicles.

(3) Transport a concealed firearm in the immediate area surrounding their vehicle within a prohibited parking lot area only for the limited purpose of storing or retrieving a firearm within a locke of subdivision (c), a lock box is an item as defined in subdivision ( y ) of Section 4082 of, and subdivision (b) of Section 4094 of, Title 11 of the California Code of Regulations, which is a firearm safety device, as defined in Section 16540, and that is listed on the Department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale pursuant to Sections 23650 and 23655.d lock box in the vehicle’s trunk or other place inside the vehicle that is out of plain view.

(d) For purposes of subdivision (c), a lock box is an item as defined in subdivision ( y ) of Section 4082 of, and subdivision (b) of Section 4094 of, Title 11 of the California Code of Regulations, which is a firearm safety device, as defined in Section 16540, and that is listed on the Department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale pursuant to Sections 23650 and 23655.

(e) For purposes of subdivisions (b) and (c), a lock box that was listed on the Department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale at the time it was purchased by the licensee shall be deemed to be a compliant lock box.

(f) Except in the places specified in paragraph (14) of subdivision (a), a licensee shall not be in violation of this section while they are traveling along a public right-of-way that touches or crosses any of the premises identified in subdivision (a) if the concealed firearm is carried on their person in accordance with the provisions of this act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law. This section does not allow a person to loiter or remain in a place longer than necessary to complete their travel.

Also, for areas which are not prohibited, the weapon can be left unloaded under the same circumstances.

CA PEN 25140.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.

Note that neither section requires the firearm to be unloaded.

 

[Dvrjon]

Do you know the PC? I’m not being snarky I actually want to find it, this is great to know and wasn’t covered in my CCW class

There's a liability in instruction. A lot of things aren't covered in a CCW class or are framed in the safest manner possible because some students might not understand the nuances and then screw up.

 

[1911-CV]

So if you step through this carefully it's correct that you can "store" the firearm in a loaded condition as long as you aren't "transporting" (moving) it. For example, you stop in a parking lot shared between a grocery store and a restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption on-site. You grab your groceries and then decide you want lunch but the "restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption on-site" is a prohibited place so take your loaded pistol and "lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box". You don't drink alcohol at lunch, so afterwards you retrieve your pistol when you get back to the car and go on your merry way. The problem is that you don't always have this option.

If the "restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption on-site" was located in its own, dedicated parking lot (or it was a courthouse, or any of the other prohibited places still in effect) then the parking lot itself becomes prohibited and the only way to legally get your pistol into the parking lot is to transport it requiring the pistol to be unloaded. It's the combined effect of PC 26230(a), e.g. sub 9 "(9) A building, real property, and parking area under the control of a vendor or an establishment where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises." and PC 26230 (b) :
"(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), except under paragraph (21) or (28) of subdivision (a), a licensee may transport a firearm and ammunition within their vehicle so long as the firearm is locked in a lock box, as defined in subdivision of Section 4082 of, and subdivision (b) of Section 4094 of, Title 11 of the California Code of Regulations, which is a firearm safety device, as defined in Section 16540, and that is listed on the department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale pursuant to Sections 23650 and 23655. This subdivision does not preempt local laws placing more restrictive requirements upon the storage of firearms in vehicles."

 

[ZeroFoxGiven]

If it is concealed carry, no one should know you are carrying in the first place. Learn to bend, twist, etc and wear appropriate attire for the size gun you are carrying and all this fine print horse is a moot point.

 

[Gawernator]

Cannot confirm nor deny carrying in Costco 4x this month, 0 issues

 

[Gawernator]

There is an exclusion in the law that allows licensed CCW holders to store the gun without unloading it in a DOJ approved lock box not visible within the vehicle in the parking lot of almost at all the sensitive places. So my suggestion is more than sufficient as well as lawful.

This is very handy for instance at the airport when going to pick someone up and going inside the terminal, or going out to eat at a restaurant.

Isn't it federal law that you can transport your unloaded firearms in a locked container and travel freely anyways (in your car, like in the trunk)

 

[Glenn B]

Isn't it federal law that you can transport your unloaded firearms in a locked container and travel freely anyways (in your car, like in the trunk)

I am talking the ability to have the firearm
Loaded in sensitive restricted paces such as the parking areas where a firearm is not allowed by state or other local law. Federal Law is generally meant for traveling with a firearm between locations where it may be lawfully possessed.

 

[Glenn B]

There's a liability in instruction. A lot of things aren't covered in a CCW class or are framed in the safest manner possible because some students might not understand the nuances and then screw up.

As an instructor in California I am required to instruct and verify that I instructed where a gun can lawfully be carried and how it is required to be stored. The difficulty is the regular case law changes related to SB 2. I provide my students with the latest CA DOJ bulletin related to sensitive areas and remind them things are still subject to change.

 

[treelogger]

If it is concealed carry, no one should know you are carrying in the first place.

Concealed is concealed, you think? The jails are full of people who thought they wouldn't get caught.

Cannot confirm nor deny carrying in Costco 4x this month, 0 issues

I always confess to my crimes on the internet. Although to be clear: We don't know for sure whether carrying in a place (such as Costco) where guns are explicitly prohibited is a crime or not; as discussed over and over in this thread, opinions on that differ.

For the moderators to cogitate: At what point do we cross the line from "explaining how some crimes might not get detected" or "true stories of crimes that were not caught" to "encouraging committing crimes"?

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Concealed is concealed, you think? The jails are full of people who thought they wouldn't get caught.


I always confess to my crimes on the internet. Although to be clear: We don't know for sure whether carrying in a place (such as Costco) where guns are explicitly prohibited is a crime or not; as discussed over and over in this thread, opinions on that differ.

For the moderators to cogitate: At what point do we cross the line from "explaining how some crimes might not get detected" or "true stories of crimes that were not caught" to "encouraging committing crimes"?

Shouldn’t be a problem if his permit/policy doesn’t list it as prohibited from carrying where there are signs restricting carry; right? If it isn’t listed, it wouldn’t be violating state law either as of the current status of sb2; it would just be not abiding to the Costco membership policy, yet Costco doesn’t know. Just because he said he did 4x, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true ; could have just been bluffing and only 0x for all we know. Just because someone publicly posts they really seriously have a 36 inch; doesn’t mean they really have it, right?

 

[treelogger]

Shouldn’t be a problem if his permit/policy doesn’t list it as prohibited from carrying where there are signs restricting carry; right?

We don't know that. As has been discussed ad infinitum, it is possible that the CCW permit itself is implicitly invalid while used in an area where carrying is prohibited, and the person carrying knows it (for the intent part). I'm not sure that interpretation is correct, but it has not been conclusively proven wrong. The question whether the permit/policy needs to explicitly state that figures into the discussion, but lack of such notice is probably not dispositive.

 

[Gawernator]

Concealed is concealed, you think? The jails are full of people who thought they wouldn't get caught.


I always confess to my crimes on the internet. Although to be clear: We don't know for sure whether carrying in a place (such as Costco) where guns are explicitly prohibited is a crime or not; as discussed over and over in this thread, opinions on that differ.

For the moderators to cogitate: At what point do we cross the line from "explaining how some crimes might not get detected" or "true stories of crimes that were not caught" to "encouraging committing crimes"?

There is no crime, for a crime to exist there has to be a penal code to charge under, and in CA that doesn't exist. Being banned from a business is a civil matter, not criminal. If you want to leave your gun in your car to go into Costco, that's up to you. If you have your CCW concealed, what do you think is going to happen exactly? They aren't doing pat down's and metal detector check at the entrance - lol.

 

[Gawernator]

Shouldn’t be a problem if his permit/policy doesn’t list it as prohibited from carrying where there are signs restricting carry; right? If it isn’t listed, it wouldn’t be violating state law either as of the current status of sb2; it would just be not abiding to the Costco membership policy, yet Costco doesn’t know. Just because he said he did 4x, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true ; could have just been bluffing and only 0x for all we know. Just because someone publicly posts they really seriously have a 36 inch; doesn’t mean they really have it, right?

Exactly. I didn't state that I carry in Costco. I said I cannot confirm nor deny if I do. My permit does not list such a restriction either.