California to start issuing non-resident CCW permits? CA DOJ bulletin released

[1911-CV]

This is mostly wrong or backwards. We are talking about personal residency at the federal level and more specifically primary residency.

Actually no. If that other site ever comes up take a look at what actual lawyers have written (by that I mean not me). The gist is that there is a federal residency with one set of rules (that are easier to meet) and then there is the residency determination that California applies. It is MUCH harder to escape California's determination of who is a resident. Of course, this part of the discussion was whether one could be a 'dual resident' and choose whether to apply for a California CCW either as a CA resident of some county, or as an out-of-state resident. Not being a lawyer but having read a lot of threads on residency over the years, I believe that if you have sufficient ties to California to think that you are a dual resident (and maybe even be one federally), for state law purposes California will claim you as a resident and only give you the option of applying as a resident of some County.

 

[elemental]

It sounds like you’re mixing tax liabilities and residence and more specifically primary residence of which the state has no control of its definition. Primary residence is specifically what we are talking about here as that defines voting in federal elections (some cities and states allow for non-primary residences to vote in local elections), D.L., CCW, and anything federal like a 4473.

To your point of the state’s version, I agree they will try and suck you dry on tax classifications. Welcome to every department using the same words in a different context.

Don’t get me wrong if your interpretation was correct, I would have had my CA CCW for the last 20 years, but after talking with CA lawyers, CA DoJ, and the CA SO I would be applying with and getting the same answer (basically don't care) I moved on.

 

[elemental]

The more important question is does anyone have data on applications times by county? From what I've seen they either don't let you see the schedule until after the pay or they are pushing apointments out around a year.

 

[Sparky11]

My Brother lives in Vegas and he just did his Application with CCWPRO last night for the San Diego Sheriff and
he has an 2 FEB 26 Online Interview scheduled..I don't know if it works the same, but I told him to
keep checking their Calendar to see if he can bump up that date! They are only doing these on Mondays!
Didn't Charge him any money till after the interview I guess....Also didn't give him any Guidance about doing
Live Scans and Weapons Qualification either...So i Guess he waits.............................................

 

[1911-CV]

It sounds like you’re mixing tax liabilities and residence and more specifically primary residence of which the state has no control of its definition. Primary residence is specifically what we are talking about here as that defines voting in federal elections (some cities and states allow for non-primary residences to vote in local elections), D.L., CCW, and anything federal like a 4473....

I'm not sure why the responses keep coming back to the federal definition when we are talking about California statutes and what this state will require (rightly or wrongly) to consider someone a resident. The other site discussions were generally in one of three contexts:
1) someone leaving California and whether they had sufficiently cut ties so that they had escaped the clutches of California;
2) someone who had moved out of California and was now coming back and whether they had sufficiently cut ties so that they would be considered a 'new resident' and could bring the non-roster guns acquired while out-of-state;
3) someone who had an eligible relative out of state, often an offspring and whether that otherwise eligible relative could gift them a non-roster gun.

I concur that the local Sheriff is extremely unlikely to do the kind of investigation that would turn up the more obscure links. But does anyone want DOJ or a very motivated prosecutor to claim a CCW permit was wrongly obtained after a controversial incident?

I am not a lawyer, and what you do is up to you. Unfortunately, the years and years of discussion on this topic are largely unavailable because that other site barely functions. But if someone is actually considering this issue maybe they should pay a lawyer a few bucks.

 

[1911-CV]

My Brother lives in Vegas and he just did his Application with CCWPRO last night for the San Diego Sheriff and
he has an 2 FEB 26 Online Interview scheduled..I don't know if it works the same, but I told him to
keep checking their Calendar to see if he can bump up that date! They are only doing these on Mondays!
Didn't Charge him any money till after the interview I guess....Also didn't give him any Guidance about doing
Live Scans and Weapons Qualification either...So i Guess he waits.............................................

If your brother hasn't already seen the CRPA advice, it is available here CRPA Website and covers the out-of-state LiveScan alternative and Weapons Qualification alternatives.

 

[elemental]

My Brother lives in Vegas and he just did his Application with CCWPRO last night for the San Diego Sheriff and
he has an 2 FEB 26 Online Interview scheduled..I don't know if it works the same, but I told him to
keep checking their Calendar to see if he can bump up that date! They are only doing these on Mondays!
Didn't Charge him any money till after the interview I guess....Also didn't give him any Guidance about doing
Live Scans and Weapons Qualification either...So i Guess he waits.............................................

Sounds about right. The two system that seem to be in use are CCWPro and Permitium. OC and SD are the only ones I've found that use CCWPro.

 

[elemental]

I'm not sure why the responses keep coming back to the federal definition when we are talking about California statutes and what this state will require (rightly or wrongly) to consider someone a resident. The other site discussions were generally in one of three contexts:
1) someone leaving California and whether they had sufficiently cut ties so that they had escaped the clutches of California;
2) someone who had moved out of California and was now coming back and whether they had sufficiently cut ties so that they would be considered a 'new resident' and could bring the non-roster guns acquired while out-of-state;
3) someone who had an eligible relative out of state, often an offspring and whether that otherwise eligible relative could gift them a non-roster gun.

I concur that the local Sheriff is extremely unlikely to do the kind of investigation that would turn up the more obscure links. But does anyone want DOJ or a very motivated prosecutor to claim a CCW permit was wrongly obtained after a controversial incident?

I am not a lawyer, and what you do is up to you. Unfortunately, the years and years of discussion on this topic are largely unavailable because that other site barely functions. But if someone is actually considering this issue maybe they should pay a lawyer a few bucks.

Well because there is a state line there when means the Fed gets to define jurisdiction (if not you could be born and live in another state and CA would claim you).

I’m aware of the cases you are talking about and they really come down to the same issue “did they actually leave” and to be fare the cases I’ve seen they didn’t, and CA went after them. Basically, if you’re going to leave then “you” have to leave (ties don’t matter). In southern California the game was mostly to go to AZ and commute for work and only get an AZ DL and then come back. The common issues people got in trouble with were not actually being out of state. Here is the core question that will be asked “If you keep your in-person job in CA and move out of state how does that work?”. As for proof they mainly use your credit card transactions (not where your back is) and cell phone tracking.

The core issue that normally triggers them to ask is that you didn’t stay out of state for at least one whole tax year. If you go you need to stay gone for both the split year (the year you moved) and all of the following year. If you come back after that they don’t care. Of course if you have income in the state during the year that you are gone then you would need to file a “non-resident” tax filing. They will want proof so if the person goes to NV it is a little more complicated.

 

[RoundEye]

The litigation agreement required that they start accepting applications, I’d be curious to see the first issued non-resident permit. I’m curious how they’ll overcome requirements like o my approved training vendors at that guns you would like to carry be registered to you in CFARS since most non-residents won’t have easy access to either.

 

[elemental]

The litigation agreement required that they start accepting applications, I’d be curious to see the first issued non-resident permit. I’m curious how they’ll overcome requirements like o my approved training vendors at that guns you would like to carry be registered to you in CFARS since most non-residents won’t have easy access to either.

Training is managed by the issuing department with the classroom part online. The live fire can be local to you but must meet the department’s standards (we’ll see if they slow role that part). Firearm registration is N/A for non-residents as is the safe handgun roster restriction.

 

[1911-CV]

Well because there is a state line there when means the Fed gets to define jurisdiction (if not you could be born and live in another state and CA would claim you).

No. The feds get to define residency for federal statutes and regulations. We are talking here about the state performing a state function under state legislation on people planning to enter/re-enter that same state.

 

[Dvrjon]

It sounds like you’re mixing tax liabilities and residence and more specifically primary residence of which the state has no control of its definition. Primary residence is specifically what we are talking about here as that defines voting in federal elections (some cities and states allow for non-primary residences to vote in local elections), D.L., CCW, and anything federal like a 4473.

Within the realm of the California State CCW statutes which authorize local authorities to issue CCWs, the State very well does have the ability to determine what "residence" means in regards to issuance. However, it hasn't.

The state statutes have a number of definitions of residence, including the Vehicle Code and Election Code and Probate Code. But, the CCW statutes don't have a definition. However, in 2014, there was a court case regarding the definition of residence/resident specifically as it pertains to CA CCW issuance. That was Sigitas Raulinaitis v. Ventura County Sheriff's Department. {It's a long document, but contains a wealth of information on domicile v. residence, legislative history and case law applications. Analysis of domicile v. residence begins on Page 20, line 8}.

Briefly, Raulinaitis was a realtor in Southern California who couldn't get cleared for a CCW in Los Angeles County. So, he bought a condo in Ventura county and claimed residence there. He registered his cars and registered to vote in Ventura County. In processing the application, the VCSO determined that he was actually living in another county and his son was staying in the condo. He was, therefore, not a resident of Ventura County as it was not his "domicile". The court went through a lengthy analysis of domicile v. resident and supported the VCSO decision.

Citing Smith v. Smith (a divorce case) the Court noted

Courts and legal writers usually distinguish “domicile” and “residence,” so that “domicile” is the one location with which for legal purposes a person is considered to have the most settled and permanent connection, the place where he intends to remain and to which, whenever he is absent, he has the intention of returning, but which the law may also assign to him constructively; whereas “residence” connotes any factual place of abode of some permanency, more than a mere temporary sojourn. “Domicile” normally is the more comprehensive term, in that it includes both the act of residence and an intention to remain; a person may have only one domicile at a given time, but he may have more than one physical residence separate from his domicile, and at the same time.

In that case, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the lower court decision, saying:

...the evidence showed that the Ventura County Sheriff's Department interpreted the residence requirement in California Penal Code section 26150(a)(3) reasonably, investigated Raulinaitis's residence thoroughly, and drew reasonable conclusions about where Raulinaitis resided.

So, voter registration and auto registration aren't be-all, end-all factors. The concept of "residence" and "resident" appears to not be merely the act of establishing a location to live but also the intent to use that location as a place they intend to remain. 51%/49% use time evaluations weren't used in the discussion.
Enjoy.

 

[Kevin James]

Last weekend I went to Reno to take the training to get my Nevada permit. They mentioned that California is now taking non-resident applications and that you will not need to come in to California to take the training, or do the interview, that both can be done from your home state (interview via Zoom).

That has me curious about something. I have my California permit, but I'm planning to move out of state in the next year to get out of this hell hole, so I'm in process with Nevada and already have my Arizona (I'm moving to one or the other). So now I'm wondering if I can just keep my California permit with my current county, and just process an address change and convert it to a non-resident permit and just do everything for the renewal from my new home state.

The county I'm currently in is way too far from where I'm going and I was thinking I was going to need to surrender my permit and start over in as So. Cal county like Riverside so it's closer to me. But if everything can be done from your home state, then maybe I can just convert my current CA permit to non-resident? That would be so much easier.

 

[NorCalBusa]

Last weekend I went to Reno to take the training to get my Nevada permit. They mentioned that California is now taking non-resident applications and that you will not need to come in to California to take the training, or do the interview, that both can be done from your home state (interview via Zoom).

That has me curious about something. I have my California permit, but I'm planning to move out of state in the next year to get out of this hell hole, so I'm in process with Nevada and already have my Arizona (I'm moving to one or the other). So now I'm wondering if I can just keep my California permit with my current county, and just process an address change and convert it to a non-resident permit and just do everything for the renewal from my new home state.

The county I'm currently in is way too far from where I'm going and I was thinking I was going to need to surrender my permit and start over in as So. Cal county like Riverside so it's closer to me. But if everything can be done from your home state, then maybe I can just convert my current CA permit to non-resident? That would be so much easier.

Understand your thinking, but it makes too much sense to happen. I think its early in the scheme, so things may get there- but the very first garden variety OOS/CCW's are just now getting going.

 

[1911-CV]

If you have your CA permit and move out-of-state, why not give them your new address and just keep renewing? Do you need to plan to visit that county for a renewal?

 

[Kevin James]

If you have your CA permit and move out-of-state, why not give them your new address and just keep renewing? Do you need to plan to visit that county for a renewal?

Thats what I'm now hoping to do, but it all depends on a few things. I'm in Sacramento County and weather I move to the Las Vegas area or Mesa AZ area, Riverside county is WAY closer.

If I don't have to physically come to Sac County to do the renewal training and pick up the permit in person then I will go that route. What I was told in my Nevada class last week gives me hope.

If I DO need to physically come to Sac County, I'll just start over in Riverside County as that is a MUCH shorter drive from either location than Sac County.

 

[Dvrjon]

While IAs have some broad discretion in issuance, I would think it would be improbable that one could get an OOS license through a simple "renewal" process with the current issuing agency. You would not, in fact, be renewing. But there are other constraints which will come into play.

The OAG Information Bulletin provides substantial, specific guidance. If contemplating an OOS license, one should read it a dozen times (including its links). Also note that the Bulletin is in two parts. First is the cover page explaining what happened and laying out OAG's interpretation of what the process should be. The second is a copy of the Judge's Order describing all of this.

Under the Order, residents of U.S. states and territories other than California will be eligible to apply for a California CCW license under Penal Code sections 26150 through 26235 only if they are both:

(1) members of
(a) the California Rifle & Pistol Association, Incorporated,
(b) Gun Owners of America, Inc.,
(c) Gun Owners of California, Inc., or
(d) The Second Amendment Foundation;
AND
(2) not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms under federal or California law.

So, not everybody is covered by the Order.

It shall be the responsibility of Nonresident Applicants, if approved and issued a CCW license, to confirm that any handgun they carry in California, in its current configuration, is legal to possess in California. It shall also be the responsibility of Nonresident Applicants to be aware of locations where it is not legal to carry a firearm in California. (See, e.g., Penal Code, § 26230; DLE Information Bulletin 2025‐DLE‐06)

That's the SB 2 ruling on where you can't carry.

With that background, the process gets fun. The most important part:

Which Licensing Authority Nonresident Applicants Must Apply to. Penal Code section 26150, subdivision (a)(3) and section 26155, subdivision (a)(3) will not apply to Nonresident Applicants. Rather, Nonresident Applicants must apply with the sheriff (per Penal Code section26150) or chief of police (per Penal Code section 26155) of a California jurisdiction in which they intend to spend time within the subsequent 12 months and attest to that intention under oath (see the next section for how this attestation can be made).

And, a second time:

Under the Order, Nonresident Applicants must also provide proof of membership in one of the four organizations previously described and attest under oath that they intend to spend time within the subsequent 12 months within the jurisdiction to which they are applying.

They seem serious about this issue of attesting to spending time in the jurisdiction becasue they repeat it, so I would be sure to pay attention to that.

Regarding the potential for a holder of a residential permit to simply transfer it to an OOS license, I would expect that to not happen. You're not renewing a license, you are getting a completely different one. I suspect that IAs will follow the black letter of the court's ruling to ensure they don't run afoul of the program. And the court did not address "renewal" into an OOS license.

 

[1911-CV]

I suspect a renewal into an out-of-state permit is unlikely due to the notice requirements on the in-state permit (10 days). The first question would probably be whether the IA would accept an address change on an existing permit to an out-of-state location...

 

[elemental]

It seems we are talking past each other at this point. As I see it there are three main scenarios being talked about in this thread.

1: Resident that moves out (in full or in part)

This one is a little tricky because of the games played to show this on paper vs reality. For the moving out in full you need to leave and stay gone for a bit. What seems to work is to say gone for a whole tax year because the state is forced via Fed law to release you. If you play the in-part game the state will fight to keep you “on the books” as they say. In the cases that I’ve seen the main thing that messes people up is the job. If you get a new job in the new state there is no with, but if you keep the same job (we are talking about active W2 jobs onsite) they will not accept it. This this case first they will say you are still a resident, and you will have to take them to count to show that you are not within their jurisdiction (side note most of the time people can’t mainly because they don’t actually leave). Once done then you can apply as in case 2.

2: Starts as a non-resident

This is the core of this thread and there is not much to say here. You can apply to any county as long as you intend to visit. Having property and assets within the state is not relevant.

3: Moving counties

This has nothing to do with the non-resident case and yes only looks at state law. They basically count nights where you physically sleep and take the highest percentage to define where your primary residence is. In general, it is clear cut (assuming all your time is within CA). If it’s not all within CA, the Fed laws become relevant although in most cases they don’t affect the result.

In the Raulinaitis case above they found that he didn’t reside in VC so he must apply via LASO.



As far as moving out and renewing as a non-resident it is unclear, but I would guess that you would have to re-apply as you will need to update your address on your resident one within a fixed time limit (I don’t recall what it is, but let’s say 10 days) and I doubt that the county would be nice enough to move you to non-residential in there system. I don’t know any reason why they can’t, but there is also no requirement that they do. It’s worth a call to your SO if that applies to you.

 

[NorCalBusa]

And if you do move out of state, know that Kaliforniastan's >13% state income tax*- you'll no longer pay. Nevada has no (zero, zip) state income tax for example- Reno Tahoe Gardnerville Mammoth are nice...

* https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-income-tax-rates/