Body Armor?

[Papa "J"]

I had a chance to meet Jake the CEO of this company. pretty impressive stuff.

IGY6 DEFENSE

igy6defense.com

 

[D.A.V.I.D.]

This one kind of trips me out, why would any civilian want body armor.
Do you really think you will ever use it and if so how and in what conditions?

Sounds like the same argument gun grabbers make about an ar-15.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

This one kind of trips me out, why would any civilian want body armor.
Do you really think you will ever use it and if so how and in what conditions?

No offense; are you joking??

 

[Radman64]

Sounds like the same argument gun grabbers make about an ar-15.

I am far from that but I know a few that are into this and it really kind of makes me chuckle because I asked them the same thing I asked here.
Apocalyptic thoughts is all I got, just like those I know who think having gold & silver on hand if shtf will matter.

 

[Radman64]

No offense; are you joking??

So please enlighten me in what scenario you would wear it in?
Robbing banks didn't work lol.
If I had to shoot I would always aim for the legs.

 

[ikeo1]

I am far from that but I know a few that are into this and it really kind of makes me chuckle because I asked them the same thing I asked here.
Apocalyptic thoughts is all I got, just like those I know who think having gold & silver on hand if shtf will matter.

Depends what you consider SHTF. There are several countries where holding precious metals is a safe haven. In the US, thanks to inflation, it’s much better to park $$ there. A lot of people outside the US look at gold as a good thing. Not necessarily silver.

It really depends where you live. At one point in my neighborhood we had some robberies which is what got me into 2A during the pandemic. I ended up getting some because it was pretty close to home.

Now I use it as a weighted vest for exercise. Lol.

 

[Radman64]

I got ya, the guys I know dont even use it for that.
As far as the metals go it's all about investment where it pays off only if shtf doesn't happen, if it does it's useless imo.

 

[ikeo1]

I got ya, the guys I know dont even use it for that.
As far as the metals go it's all about investment where it pays off only if shtf doesn't happen, if it does it's useless imo.

Not necessarily. If you travel you can take .9999 gold with you to any country that’s independent of the dollar value.

In a very recent case, the dollar value is dropping recently with currency arbitrage through gold dealers in another country I made ~8% over the past month.

It’s less useful in the US because people don’t value it as much as the rest of the world. It’s better than parking it in Cash though.

 

[bigRich22]

Not necessarily. If you travel you can take .9999 gold with you to any country that’s independent of the dollar value.

In a very recent case, the dollar value is dropping recently with currency arbitrage through gold dealers in another country I made ~8% over the past month.

It’s less useful in the US because people don’t value it as much as the rest of the world. It’s better than parking it in Cash though.

Much better than putting your money in the bank so some rich people can make more money out of your money and give you 1% a year for holding it with them. Heh. Gold.has a history. It's reference in scrolls over 50,000 years ago and many cultures are obsessed with it. I think there is more to gold than we know.

 

[bigRich22]

So please enlighten me in what scenario you would wear it in?
Robbing banks didn't work lol.
If I had to shoot I would always aim for the legs.

Everyone has their own beliefs. From what I know through my research, actual actions of our govt and private funds, my connected friends and colleagues, there is zero reason why I shouldn't believe America will have war on it's own soil. Sad to think it is more likely to be a civil war but needless to say, if I have the freedom & funds to purchase armor for me and my loved ones, I will. Also, a lot of tweakers live 5 min walk from my place. If any of them decide to break in enter, rather have extra protection than not. Although, in California, I might go to jail longer for having multicam armor on my body in my own home bc I'll be insinuating being prepared is = being willing to kill in defense. SMH. Nobody would put up with this BS if more states has this weather and scenery hah

 

[bigRich22]

Final thought, a BIG THANK YOU to everyone who took the time to help me by responding. I appreciate each one of you for giving me your experiences.

I ended up at Scorpius Tactical in Reno and got a load out of the newer hybrid armor international - polyethylene, Kevlar and ceramic blend. Handles multi impacts without crumbling, much much lighter and thinner and the III+ stops 308 and green tip point blank.

If anyone knows a good FRAS dealer or can educate me more on this technology, I would love to learn more.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

Not sure where to exactly open up discussion of this so please chime in mods if needed.

I am in the market to suit up so figured why not start a discussion for the community to share their knowledge. I have chatted with several guys in shops and over the phone. It seems that everyone has a different opinion regarding which technology is the way to go.

Would love to open discussion on knowledge and EXPERIENCE with BA.

Topics for discussion:
- I have been told that steel plates, regardless of their coating, can still fragment, resulting in injury or death.

Lets start here:
Watch this video:
First, look at 7:50 when he pulls the steel plate out. Watch for a couple minutes to see the full extent of the bullet impacts:

THEN.....look right at 15:00, when he pulls what's left of the ceramic plate out of the carrier.
It's even worse than I remembered; the ceramic basically totally disintegrated - which it is supposed to do, but that's my point;
Unless you plan on keeping a stock of spare plates, once your ceramic takes ONE hit, it's dust. Literally. You can't wear / re-use it. Period.
Steel doesn't have that problem.

That particular steel plate will probably stay perfectly intact & continue to protect against hits for another 100+ rounds. IIRC, that's about how many rounds an average piece of body armor will take before rounds start going through - maybe. Sometimes a lot more.

My point is NOT that I ever imagine getting hit with more than a couple bullets at once;
My point is; if anything happens in this country where you need to break out your body armor, it's some sort of serious and LONG TERM / LONG-LASTING breakdown of the rule of law; widespread violence, etc. It's not a 2 hour thing and then over. It will be a serious and LONG TERM CONFLICT.

My point is; as soon as those plates take ONE hit, they're done. Gone. Over.
So unless you plan on stocking tons of spare plates, where are you going to get more in a SHTF situation?
You gonna order them online?

Run down to Big5 or your local gun shop? Hell no.

If things really get to that point in this country, I'm almost positive that;
a) ANY body armor will be almost impossible to get because everyone else has already bought it
b) It will be banned for "civilians" by those causing the problems. (ts)


Re: Spall; I did a TON of research a few years ago & I remember learning that spall is somewhat overhyped. Or, possibly VERY overhyped.
All "spall" means is; the bullet breaks into fragments upon impact, and those litle shards CAN go all over the place. CAN. Not "DO". Maybe they do.

So; if you get hit on a plate, there's a CHANCE that one of those bullet fragments / spall pieces, could enter your body & cause injury. I don't think there's any documented case of mere spall alone (from a rifle) causing any lethal injury.

Oop.....actually; I might be mistaken; according to this video; "Spall" is the ARMOR fragmenting, "SPLASH" is the bullet fragmenting:

I've never heard the term "splash" used for bullets, but whatever.... it is a critical distinction between the bullet fragments, or the armor fragmenting.

Frankly with how that ceramic just disintegrated (which again, it IS supposed to do!) I'd be more worried about getting hit by a piece of CERAMIC vs. a bullet fragment bouncing off my STEEL plates!!!!

ALSO: Very important to understand;
the "damage" you see on the steel plate is 100% ONLY the spall guard coating. If you look closely (or at other steel plates that have been shot) the plate itself is still perfectly intact and still protecting against bullets.

AND:
it's also VERY important to note how much deformation there was on the BACK of the ceramic plate; (backface deformation) (in other words; YOUR CHEST).
A TON of that bullet energy went through the CERAMIC plate and INTO YOUR CHEST. Frankly; I'm shocked at how severe that backface deformation is.
IDK if these are extra-ty ceramics or what, but holy crap.....DAMN I'm so glad I bought steel & will never buy a set of ceramic!!!

You have to remember too that your carrier & all related gear acts in some small way as a "spall guard" - think of all the stuff you've seen people put on their plate carriers; magazines, IFAK, TQ, tools, maps, etc. etc. etc. Well, the bullet fragments have to contend with ALL that stuff too.

Again; if you are THAT worried about it, buy some spall guards from dave (fellow CalGunner)

Recommended Armor and Gear Database

UPDATED AFTER LONG HIATUS- THANKS FOR BEING PATIENT! ***UPDATED 3-12-2019*** Many of you have asked for a continuously updated database of the current “best-practices” armor items, and …

drmorgear.wordpress.com

- I have heard that ceramic actually have a longer shelf life than listed. How long is that if that is true?

I've read that too, and as with anything; it depends. On a lot.
How much do you use / wear your ceramic plates?
Where & how do you store them?
What do you do when you are wearing them? Sitting around guarding a mall, or vaulting up & over walls, crawling through the dirt, getting in physical fights, etc?
They COULD potentially have a longer life than officially indicated, but it's not a guarantee.
However, it also doesn't mean that the plates turn to useless dust as soon as that 'expiration date" ticks around......

How many impacts can ceramic take before it fails?

What "impact"? Bullet impacts? Impact from you falling on your back? Impact from you getting knocked onto your chest?
I'd suggest you watch the video I linked below, as well as more - and determine for yourself approximately what that number of bullet impacts seems to be.
Me? Again; I went straight for steel, hands down (after I did all my research).
The more I look into it (as with the minor refresh I did here) the happier, more confident & comfortable I get in my decision.

- Love to learn more about soft armor - kevlar. Don't know much about it other than it's designed to resist handgun calibers. To what degree?

Soft armor is just that; kevlar & possibly other fibers / fabrics woven together. I've only heard of soft armor stopping handgun rounds, and MAYBE certain shotgun rounds. Soft armor will NOT stop any sort of rifle / carbine; 5.56, etc.
Because it is SOFT, and as such, a LOT of the bullet energy gets transferred directly into your chest, it WILL hurt a LOT to get shot with soft armor - more so than with hard plates. Getting shot no matter what you are wearing is definintely no fun, as you may have guessed. But we're trying to give ourselves every little advantage here, aren't we?

- is the 5.7 really armor piercing? Is this against soft or hard armor? If yes, I assume that ammo isn't available for civilians? What makes that ammo special vs the run of the mill at Sportsman's?

IDK about 5.7 specifically. I'm pretty sure it will penetrate soft armor because of its high velocity + spitzer (pointy) shape, and I'm almost positive they do make 5.7 rounds that are designed to be armor piercing. (Pointy vs. round actually DOES matter for bullets. Just not rockets! - The Dictator)

I'm a 6'2" 245lbs animal and I am aware steel is heavy but I can handle a few extra pounds on my back. Literally. Purpose would be for home defense but if there is an option that blends effectiveness across most common calibers and "moveability," wouldn't mind being faster on my toes for longer if I gotta hotwire a car with a herd of zombies on my 6.

Thank you, community.

again; do your research & make up your own mind, but bears repeating;
That ceramic completely turned to dust - and that was after only 2 rifle bullets.
For home defense, that should be OK; just understand you are going to be immediately replacing any ceramic soon as it gets a hit, or maybe even takes a hard fall.
Steel is way more durable & tolerant of rough treatment, temperatures, etc. etc.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

Everyone has their own beliefs. From what I know through my research, actual actions of our govt and private funds, my connected friends and colleagues, there is zero reason why I shouldn't believe America will have war on it's own soil. Sad to think it is more likely to be a civil war but needless to say, if I have the freedom & funds to purchase armor for me and my loved ones, I will. Also, a lot of tweakers live 5 min walk from my place. If any of them decide to break in enter, rather have extra protection than not. Although, in California, I might go to jail longer for having multicam armor on my body in my own home bc I'll be insinuating being prepared is = being willing to kill in defense. SMH. Nobody would put up with this BS if more states has this weather and scenery hah

Is it really going to be a "civil" war, or do WE THE PEOPLE need to pay some visits to an extremely small, but disproportionately powerful little cult of tyrants?
Names & addresses. Your liberties aren't dying; they're being killed by people with names & addresses......

Your neighbor isn't the problem.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

So please enlighten me in what scenario you would wear it in?
Robbing banks didn't work lol.
If I had to shoot I would always aim for the legs.

Were you alive during the summer of 2020?
t coup; color revolution; race riots.....
You don't think anything like that could ever happen again?
I'm positively shocked it hasn't already, given what's coming up with this coming election.

 

[bigRich22]

Is it really going to be a "civil" war, or do WE THE PEOPLE need to pay some visits to an extremely small, but disproportionately powerful little cult of tyrants?
Names & addresses. Your liberties aren't dying; they're being killed by people with names & addresses......

Your neighbor isn't the problem.

I've done a lot of research hence why nothing fit the bill so I'm just going to own several sets. Got my hybrids, looking at FRAS or hexar and I'll get steel sometime down the line.

I must thank you brother. Hats off to you. thank you for all the info on steel. You really went above and beyond. You didn't have to do that, man.

I don't mean full Force civil war. Besides, it would be a lot of drone, cyber and chemical warfare. I agree with you it's a small group screwing the country but they have the power to deploy armed forces, have multiple addresses (probably 1 off the books) and some neighbors might actually be an enemy - either a brain washed fanboy or wanting your goods. What you think that zombie is going to do when he runs out of toilet paper??!!!

 

[Radman64]

Were you alive during the summer of 2020?
t coup; color revolution; race riots.....
You don't think anything like that could ever happen again?
I'm positively shocked it hasn't already, given what's coming up with this coming election.

I believe in a future that does not involve anarchy lol.

 

[Radman64]

Were you alive during the summer of 2020?
t coup; color revolution; race riots.....
You don't think anything like that could ever happen again?
I'm positively shocked it hasn't already, given what's coming up with this coming election.

Of course I was but I saw it for just for the manufactured garbage it was pumped up by the media.
Again, I was tossed into an arena where I knew I was going to take fire at anytime day or night, I was taught reaction to suppress if need be.
NK's can't shoot for the life of them just like most liberals lol.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

I've done a lot of research hence why nothing fit the bill so I'm just going to own several sets. Got my hybrids, looking at FRAS or hexar and I'll get steel sometime down the line.

I must thank you brother. Hats off to you. thank you for all the info on steel. You really went above and beyond. You didn't have to do that, man.

I don't mean full Force civil war. Besides, it would be a lot of drone, cyber and chemical warfare. I agree with you it's a small group screwing the country but they have the power to deploy armed forces, have multiple addresses (probably 1 off the books) and some neighbors might actually be an enemy - either a brain washed fanboy or wanting your goods. What you think that zombie is going to do when he runs out of toilet paper??!!!

Well you are very welcome! Anyone who does their research; I certainly can't fault.
And again; my only gripe with ceramics is the fragility (relatively) and fact that soon as they take a hit - or even if you fall - they must be x-rayed at least, or just replaced.
Other than that, I don't love the heavier weight of steel, but whatever.

I didn't even know about the new hybrid stuff, so THANKS for giving me ANOTHER rabbit hole to go down....

You are very welcome for the info & thoughts; hope it was of some use. Like I said, I had fun dipping my toe back into the rabbit hole.
And I HOPE things remain calm & peaceful, but I'm preparing for if they don't.....hope for the best, prep for the worst.......

And yep; what is the saying; 3 meals away from anarchy?

As for the rest; the "what-ifs" and scenarios on anything resembling a civil war are a whole other rabbit....uh...cave......BIG one.....
Just one little thought; how much of the military would actually & honestly obey orders to attack / fire upon their fellow American?
Mind you that - from every single thing I've read, seen & heard (and that's a lot) the higher up the secret squirrel tree you go, the MORE patriotic, Christian, and conservative they get. Virtually ALL our Tier 1 dudes are bad-ass, red-blooded, gun loving, bible toting Americans. Not saying they'd ALL desert & join We The People, but I believe a LOT would.

Either way, it doesn't matter; the military is literally comprised of our friends, family, relatives & neighbors. How long will that drone operator or door-kicker last, once his neighbors find out what he's been doing?

I highly doubt ALL - or even significant number - of military bases have been properly hardened / designed / stocked to last more than a few weeks 100% off-grid. Meaning ZERO gets in nor out; no fuel resupply, no ammo, no food, water; nothing. Because that's the first thing (theoretically) we'd do if the .MIL turned on us is attack their bases (and CIVILIAN leaders)

My only point is; I & many others believe a not insignificant number of the military (and police) would desert / disobey orders to impose martial law or similar.
Again; we can HOPE that, but prepare for if they don't.....

And yes def; some neighbors could well be a threat.....which is why we tell nobody about prep club / gun club. Trust in God, everyone else; keep your hands where I can see 'em.

Stay safe.

 

[bigRich22]

Well you are very welcome! Anyone who does their research; I certainly can't fault.
And again; my only gripe with ceramics is the fragility (relatively) and fact that soon as they take a hit - or even if you fall - they must be x-rayed at least, or just replaced.
Other than that, I don't love the heavier weight of steel, but whatever.

I didn't even know about the new hybrid stuff, so THANKS for giving me ANOTHER rabbit hole to go down....

You are very welcome for the info & thoughts; hope it was of some use. Like I said, I had fun dipping my toe back into the rabbit hole.
And I HOPE things remain calm & peaceful, but I'm preparing for if they don't.....hope for the best, prep for the worst.......

And yep; what is the saying; 3 meals away from anarchy?

As for the rest; the "what-ifs" and scenarios on anything resembling a civil war are a whole other rabbit....uh...cave......BIG one.....
Just one little thought; how much of the military would actually & honestly obey orders to attack / fire upon their fellow American?
Mind you that - from every single thing I've read, seen & heard (and that's a lot) the higher up the secret squirrel tree you go, the MORE patriotic, Christian, and conservative they get. Virtually ALL our Tier 1 dudes are bad-ass, red-blooded, gun loving, bible toting Americans. Not saying they'd ALL desert & join We The People, but I believe a LOT would.

Either way, it doesn't matter; the military is literally comprised of our friends, family, relatives & neighbors. How long will that drone operator or door-kicker last, once his neighbors find out what he's been doing?

I highly doubt ALL - or even significant number - of military bases have been properly hardened / designed / stocked to last more than a few weeks 100% off-grid. Meaning ZERO gets in nor out; no fuel resupply, no ammo, no food, water; nothing. Because that's the first thing (theoretically) we'd do if the .MIL turned on us is attack their bases (and CIVILIAN leaders)

My only point is; I & many others believe a not insignificant number of the military (and police) would desert / disobey orders to impose martial law or similar.
Again; we can HOPE that, but prepare for if they don't.....

And yes def; some neighbors could well be a threat.....which is why we tell nobody about prep club / gun club. Trust in God, everyone else; keep your hands where I can see 'em.

Stay safe.

I agree lots of LEO and military will wake up and realize those lizard people on top are only serving themselves and at the expense of the health of our country (and the world)!


So much I want to reply to but can't rn.
But I did want to share the tap test for ceramic plates if you don't know about it already.

 

[Malibu]

I find all the discussion of body armor interesting.
Without going into possible scenarios that I envision for it’s use, I will offer a little about my own personal training in regards to such.
We are fairly confident in saying that bad people of all sorts (including those who are state sponsored) may wear armor during their activities. For this reason, a good portion of the training curriculum should include placing rounds on target to specifically stop threats so equipped. This means that specific areas such as the sides, low back, face, neck, groin/hips, legs, are all specific targeted areas in addition (of course) to the traditional center-mass engagement. Looking at a lot of the armor being offered for sale suggests that the protected coverage areas are not that big, and many areas are left open to projectile strikes that most certainly would take one out of the fight, at least long enough for you to gain a position of advantage and finish your work. This is born of the fact that it is impractical to provide enough coverage to protect all body areas; one couldn’t move about freely if so equipped.
In the past, many professionally hosted classes I attended focused on placing two rounds to the body, center mass. Also taught in nearly all was the “failure drill”, being that if the first two center mass hits didn’t stop the threat right away after an initial assessment, another round was to be placed to the head. Going forward, IMO, every engagement should be treated as a failure-to-stop, without hesitation. Assessment can occur well after the target is down and more rounds have been placed while they are down, or retreating. This is yet another reason why citizens need standard capacity ammunition load outs. Be they magazines, belts, or whatever, capacity limits damper the ability to deal with body armor wearing threats. So, train with the expectation that your adversary will be wearing armor.