Body Armor?

[DrJonesUSA]

I agree lots of LEO and military will wake up and realize those lizard people on top are only serving themselves and at the expense of the health of our country (and the world)!


So much I want to reply to but can't rn.
But I did want to share the tap test for ceramic plates if you don't know about it already.

Right on!

If you haven't, you absolutely check out the Shawn Ryan Show:

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He's retired Navy SEAL + CIA, and has absolutely realized all that about our gov & he's not shy about stating such.
Many of the amazing people he hosts - lots of retired / active SOF / Secret Squirrels - firmly agree with him, and give tons of real-life experiences & examples of how this is objectively true. Our gov has crossed the line, jumped the shark, is truly the ENEMY of the People.

SO: YES: much, MUCH of the .MIL are acutely aware of this. Both active & retired.

This is what gives me hope that, not only would a significant chunk of the active duty .MIL refuse to attack Americans, a LOT of the retired guys (many not so recently retired & still very fresh) would be on our side.

Just my perspective & I could be flat wrong.

Anyway, Thanks for the vid; will check out!

Enjoy your plates!

 

[DrJonesUSA]

I find all the discussion of body armor interesting.
Without going into possible scenarios that I envision for it’s use, I will offer a little about my own personal training in regards to such.
We are fairly confident in saying that bad people of all sorts (including those who are state sponsored) may wear armor during their activities. For this reason, a good portion of the training curriculum should include placing rounds on target to specifically stop threats so equipped. This means that specific areas such as the sides, low back, face, neck, groin/hips, legs, are all specific targeted areas in addition (of course) to the traditional center-mass engagement. Looking at a lot of the armor being offered for sale suggests that the protected coverage areas are not that big, and many areas are left open to projectile strikes that most certainly would take one out of the fight, at least long enough for you to gain a position of advantage and finish your work. This is born of the fact that it is impractical to provide enough coverage to protect all body areas; one couldn’t move about freely if so equipped.
In the past, many professionally hosted classes I attended focused on placing two rounds to the body, center mass. Also taught in nearly all was the “failure drill”, being that if the first two center mass hits didn’t stop the threat right away after an initial assessment, another round was to be placed to the head. Going forward, IMO, every engagement should be treated as a failure-to-stop, without hesitation. Assessment can occur well after the target is down and more rounds have been placed while they are down, or retreating. This is yet another reason why citizens need standard capacity ammunition load outs. Be they magazines, belts, or whatever, capacity limits damper the ability to deal with body armor wearing threats. So, train with the expectation that your adversary will be wearing armor.

Very well said & awesome post!
I agree completely with what you said.
It's also one of the MANY reasons why I have concluded that an AR15 or similar is the ideal home defense firearm, and shotguns should absolutely be left for hunting only.

Shotguns will not penetrate body armor, but WILL quite drastically OVER-penetrate things like drywall, which is another one of the myriad reasons why you don't see cops, and sure as hell no military, carrying shotguns these days.

Great post!

 

[Malibu]

Very well said & awesome post!
I agree completely with what you said.
It's also one of the MANY reasons why I have concluded that an AR15 or similar is the ideal home defense firearm, and shotguns should absolutely be left for hunting only.

Shotguns will not penetrate body armor, but WILL quite drastically OVER-penetrate things like drywall, which is another one of the myriad reasons why you don't see cops, and sure as hell no military, carrying shotguns these days.

Great post!

My default shotgun drill with slugs is one round center-mass, followed by a quick second to the head if available. I would bet that a center punch with a slug will have a lot of disruptive force, penetration or not. I’ve used them successfully for big game, and the destruction was quite evident. So, I personally think they have their place in a social scenario, but YMMV. As to the concept of using carbines indoors, there is a lot to that as well, and most certainly I would not like to be up against an adversary so equipped, especially if they were properly skilled.
All of the above are examples of why we train. Some of my most valuable training experiences have been conducted in shoot houses using force-on-force scenarios with hired roll players, an eye-opening experience for those who haven’t had the opportunity. When they successfully snatch it away or bowl you over with your own long gun, it is very humbling. Makes one very aware of things like doorways, corners, blind spots, hallways, etc. But that is another discussion.
Bottom line with all this ranting is that one should expect that everyone you might need to shoot will wear armor, and whatever weapon you choose to use as a fighting tool will be dictated by the circumstances of the encounter. Hopefully your choice will help in the outcome, but remember that it is the individual and their skill sets, experience, and luck that will carry the day.

 

[BenGhazi]

...

Shotguns will not penetrate body armor, but WILL quite drastically OVER-penetrate things like drywall, which is another one of the myriad reasons why you don't see cops, and sure as hell no military, carrying shotguns these days.

..

It should be duly noted that shotgun rounds, say 2.75-3" 1-oz (minimum) rifled slugs may or may not penetrate hard body armor, but even if it doesn't, that back face deformation and/or impact will be enough to seriously wound, incapacitate, or permanently neutralize the subject. That's why one should aim for the grapefruit any time -- regardless of available caliber. Average criminal belonging to a burglary crew from some South LA cesspool who likes to wear soft NIJ Level II or IIIA? Yeah, those slugs will make a mess of 'em. Not saying the shotgun is superior to a Stoner platform for home defense situations, but it will continue to have its uses.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

My default shotgun drill with slugs is one round center-mass, followed by a quick second to the head if available. I would bet that a center punch with a slug will have a lot of disruptive force, penetration or not. I’ve used them successfully for big game, and the destruction was quite evident. So, I personally think they have their place in a social scenario, but YMMV. As to the concept of using carbines indoors, there is a lot to that as well, and most certainly I would not like to be up against an adversary so equipped, especially if they were properly skilled.
All of the above are examples of why we train. Some of my most valuable training experiences have been conducted in shoot houses using force-on-force scenarios with hired roll players, an eye-opening experience for those who haven’t had the opportunity. When they successfully snatch it away or bowl you over with your own long gun, it is very humbling. Makes one very aware of things like doorways, corners, blind spots, hallways, etc. But that is another discussion.
Bottom line with all this ranting is that one should expect that everyone you might need to shoot will wear armor, and whatever weapon you choose to use as a fighting tool will be dictated by the circumstances of the encounter. Hopefully your choice will help in the outcome, but remember that it is the individual and their skill sets, experience, and luck that will carry the day.

Very respectfully disagree. First off; I'm in no way knocking shotguns. I love them, have a couple, etc.

That said; Shotguns simply never were intended to penetrate armor & they're basically balilistically incapable of it; its just the physics / ballistics of how armor & bullets work.

I certainly DO agree that even "only" ONE slug (or "only 00 buck! ) ANYWHERE on your body is very darn near certain to take the fight right out of you.
A slug center mass??
Even if wearing plates??

Yeah, you will have a ROTTEN hell of a day!!
BUT.....that damn slug STILL probably won't penetrate the armor.
MAYBE it will.....but most tests tell us probably not.
SO you're using (IMHO) hope as a tactic;
HOPING that slug will take enough of the fight out of them, HOPING you can get off a follow up head-shot.

And my man; if you can honestly do a quick one COM, one to the head with a SHOTGUN; YOU are the lethal weapon! Forget about it - You don't need any guns!!!

One of the other reasons I personally prefer AR's for home defense; ridiculously low recoil, enabling faster & more accurate follow up shots. I will admit; I do not love shooting 12 ga's; recoil is just too nasty. Let alone for my poor wife...yikes.....but she can & has shot an AR for dozens of rounds. Gladly!

Again; if you have trained & practiced & are comfortable & confident in how fast & accurate you can place those follow up shots with your shotgun ++Slugs; more power to ya.

Personally, if I were a bad guy, I'd IMMEDIATELY stop doing my bad guy things the second someone pulled a shotgun on me.

BUT;
the AR WILL - without a doubt - zip right through all but the highest-rated body armor, clear into the body, which is the intended purpose; to sto the threat as quickly as possible.

With a shotgun, it's a hope the blunt force trauma will be enough.
A HOPE that you can get that follow up head shot. (which it sounds like you train for it, so....you should be good!)
With the AR; it's a certainty that round is going into the bad guy.

Again; you sound like you've put a lot fo thought into this, so stick with what you like, just some discussion + food for thought.

I definitely agree that I'd absolutely prefer my adversary unarmed, and would certainly not look forward to going up against someone armed with a shotgun, nor carbine. Unfortunately we don't get to decide that.

Oh last thing;

>>I’ve used them (slugs??) successfully for big game, and the destruction was quite evident.

LIAR!

there's no way you shot an animal - even big game - with SLUGS and there was anything left of 'em to inspect!!!

 

[DrJonesUSA]

It should be duly noted that shotgun rounds, say 2.75-3" 1-oz (minimum) rifled slugs may or may not penetrate hard body armor, but even if it doesn't, that back face deformation and/or impact will be enough to seriously wound, incapacitate, or permanently neutralize the subject. That's why one should aim for the grapefruit any time -- regardless of available caliber. Average criminal belonging to a burglary crew from some South LA cesspool who likes to wear soft NIJ Level II or IIIA? Yeah, those slugs will make a mess of 'em. Not saying the shotgun is superior to a Stoner platform for home defense situations, but it will continue to have its uses.

Agreed, but........BUT........
As I just outlined in my prior comment, i believe this boils down to using hope as a tactic;
Hoping your adversary won't be wearing armor, let alone hard plates,
Hoping that the shotgun causes enough backface deformation / blunt force trauma to take some - or all - of the fight out of the bad guy.
Hoping that you have trained enough to get a quick follow up shot, despite that nasty 12 ga recoil.

Again; not ting on shotguns; I love 'em, have several, etc. etc. Absolutely they have their place + many, many uses!

I personally simply feel that for home defense, they've been far eclipsed by the AR platform.

JMHO.

 

[Hunterb]

Steel? LOL. Only for the retarded poors who don't understand that steel is HEAVY.
I bought steel plates when I didn't know any better. Waste of money.

Buy HESCO ceramic 4410's or the LT210's.


/thread

 

[H. Bowman]

Steel plates are dumb. Spalling will hurt you bad, and unless you're used to rucking with that weight, you're going to make it about 100 yards, or less, and be done for the day. Quality armor isn't all that expensive and it's WAY better and can be relatively comfortable.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

Steel? LOL. Only for the retarded poors who don't understand that steel is HEAVY.
I bought steel plates when I didn't know any better. Waste of money.

Buy HESCO ceramic 4410's or the LT210's.


/thread

Mmhmmmm….
Have you seen exactly what happens to your ceramics after they take even one round? They turn to literal dust - as they’re supposed to, but still; dust.
You’ll be replacing them each & every time they take a round, or hard fall.
If things truly go south in this country, do you actually think you’ll be able to buy body armor from anywhere to replace your busted plates?

Meanwhile, my steel will be humming along just fine, laughing at you.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

Steel plates are dumb. Spalling will hurt you bad, and unless you're used to rucking with that weight, you're going to make it about 100 yards, or less, and be done for the day. Quality armor isn't all that expensive and it's WAY better and can be relatively comfortable.

They aren’t anywhere near THAT heavy. If you can’t walk but 100 yards with a set of steel plates on, you have FAR bigger problems than your gear.

 

[Malibu]

If things truly go south in this country, do you actually think you’ll be able to buy body armor from anywhere to replace your busted plates?

IMO, if we get to a point wherein the need for replacement armor is an issue (for whatever reason relative to the armor itself), things will be bad to the point that it will be of minor concern in comparison to other issues, to myself at least.
I hope it never goes that for south, but if it does there will I think be lots of stuff like that available from the deceased, including weapons of all sorts.
At this point, I’m more focused on having the means to live somewhat “normally and comfortably” when and if the balloon goes up…..wondering if this November might become a field exercise. We will see…

 

[DrJonesUSA]

IMO, if we get to a point wherein the need for replacement armor is an issue (for whatever reason relative to the armor itself), things will be bad to the point that it will be of minor concern in comparison to other issues, to myself at least.
I hope it never goes that for south, but if it does there will I think be lots of stuff like that available from the deceased, including weapons of all sorts.
At this point, I’m more focused on having the means to live somewhat “normally and comfortably” when and if the balloon goes up…..wondering if this November might become a field exercise. We will see…

Eh.... I definitely get your point and agree to an extent, but at the same time, that's the whole purpose of prepping is to give ourselves as many advantages as possible; to think through what scenarios we see as being actually likely to occur and positioning ourselves to survive & thrive.

I think looking further down the road is wise & prudent.
It would be akin to stocking a few gallons of water, but making zero preps / giving no thought to "what happens when the water I DO have saved, is used up??"

Same with armor; ok great you have ceramics, but again; LITERALLY one solid hit (or even a hard fall) and they're practically useless.

And here again; using hope as a tactic. Hoping you'll be able to resupply from various loot drops that will hopefully spontaneously appear.
No offense / snark intended; just being blunt.
But that's just me.

I also definitely, VERY MUCH hope this stays completely & totally theoretical.

 

[Hunterb]

Mmhmmmm….
Have you seen exactly what happens to your ceramics after they take even one round? They turn to literal dust - as they’re supposed to, but still; dust.
You’ll be replacing them each & every time they take a round, or hard fall.
If things truly go south in this country, do you actually think you’ll be able to buy body armor from anywhere to replace your busted plates?

Meanwhile, my steel will be humming along just fine, laughing at you.

100% NOT TRUE.

My HESCO LT210's are multi-hit rated. And yes, wearing 20 pounds of steel is heavy if you actually run and gun.
People still saying steel body armor is good in the era of ceramic composites are spreading wrong information.

There was a 100 page thread on this by a crazy armor expert in Calguns who used to make spall protectors for us poors with steel plates. He constantly recommended HESCO. Go to Arfcom and all the .mil guys recommend HESCO.
PLEASE Do more research before you recommend something as important as body armor.

 

[H. Bowman]

They aren’t anywhere near THAT heavy. If you can’t walk but 100 yards with a set of steel plates on, you have FAR bigger problems than your gear.

Walking a hundred yards and being in a running gun fight are vastly different experiences. I'd venture that a huge majority of people who are buying steel armor are not in the kind of physical shape to be physically proficient in a gunfight in gym gear and good boots, much less wearing armor and spare mags.

If someone wants to buy steel armor, go for it. But I'd recommend a lot of other things first. I'm just one person with one opinion though, and other people's purchases don't hurt me.

 

[DrJonesUSA]

100% NOT TRUE.

My HESCO LT210's are multi-hit rated. And yes, wearing 20 pounds of steel is heavy if you actually run and gun.
People still saying steel body armor is good in the era of ceramic composites are spreading wrong information.

There was a 100 page thread on this by a crazy armor expert in Calguns who used to make spall protectors for us poors with steel plates. He constantly recommended HESCO. Go to Arfcom and all the .mil guys recommend HESCO.
PLEASE Do more research before you recommend something as important as body armor.

I guess I should clarify;
YES, ceramics are "multi-hit rated" - and major emphasis on the air quotes.
Have you ever seen what happens to a ceramic plate after it takes a round?

Do you think any manufacturer suggests that you continue wearing their plates after it takes a round, or three, or however many its rated for?

Yes, they are "multi-hit rated" in that they will technically stop several rounds in one go; but that doesn't mean you are supposed to continue wearing those plates for months or years after they take that first hit.

That's what I mean.... slow down boss.....

Also, I'm only spreading MY OPINION.
I dont have any problem with anyone buying non-steel plates; I'm simply telling them they ought to strongly consider having a spare set for in case those ceramics get damaged by falls / drops, or take a round.

I'm telling & encouraging people to do their own research. I'm sharing MY conclusions I came to after doing MY research.

 

[Experimentalist]

This one kind of trips me out, why would any civilian want body armor.
Do you really think you will ever use it and if so how and in what conditions?

A fair question. Historically the need for such in the U.S. has been negligible, save for a few special times and places.

Some make analogies to fire extinguishers. I have several throughout the house, yet my house has never been on fire. Seems a prudent thing to do. Likewise having personal protective gear in the event of a violent encounter seems reasonable.

Most here seem focused on civil unrest. In that context hard plates capable of stopping rifle rounds makes sense. Hopefully an attentive person would have a degree of advance warning when things were brewing and have time to don their gear. I know one person from work who was holding their child while helicopters hovered overhead during the 2020 riots. I would imagine having armor would at the least serve as a sort of security blanket in such circumstances.

I personally have greater interest in casual day to day issues. If one thinks it sensible to carry a firearm in pubic (with a CCW presumably) for the purposes of self-defense then the protection afforded by armor only adds value. In these circumstances the greatest threat would be knives and pistols and soft armor is adequate. I have a few T-shirt armor sets that I wear when visiting sketchy places and armed: https://premierbodyarmor.com/collections/everyday-armor-t-shirt

I've read the works of several self-defense instructors, and they often point out that predators prefer to strike without warning. The element of surprise is a huge advantage the bad guys know well. Having some protection may buy you time to respond to the ambush. Sure, the coverage of T-shirt armor is limited. But it's surprisingly comfortable, reasonably concealed, and certainly better than nothing should the worst happen.

As in art and morality, drawing the line in personal protection choices is very much up to the individual.

 

[-D.M.-]

I read (or heard) somewhere, I can't remember exactly where, that due to the proliferation of (relatively) affordable lvl 4 body armor, they're beginning to teach people (soldiers, police, private military) to aim for the pelvic bowl now after center mass shots.

Head shots under stress are hard, especially with a target that's not static. The area just beneath most 10"x12" plates is mostly intestine and you can stay in the fight for quite a while after being shot there. A shot or two to the pelvic bowl, however, will F- you up fast, you'll bleed out quickly, and 95% of the time is relatively unprotected.

Just something to consider while training for various scenarios.

 

[Jon F]

This one kind of trips me out, why would any civilian want body armor.
Do you really think you will ever use it and if so how and in what conditions?

I have level IIIA soft vest but I only wear it when shooting steel. I caught a chunk of frag with my chest last September while practicing for steel challenge. The little bastard is still stuck in a rib. I used to tease my buddies in vests, now I’m one of them.

 

[Ryan Gosling]

It should be duly noted that shotgun rounds, say 2.75-3" 1-oz (minimum) rifled slugs may or may not penetrate hard body armor, but even if it doesn't, that back face deformation and/or impact will be enough to seriously wound, incapacitate, or permanently neutralize the subject. That's why one should aim for the grapefruit any time -- regardless of available caliber. Average criminal belonging to a burglary crew from some South LA cesspool who likes to wear soft NIJ Level II or IIIA? Yeah, those slugs will make a mess of 'em. Not saying the shotgun is superior to a Stoner platform for home defense situations, but it will continue to have its uses.

ya hate to see it

 

[tomrkba]

I like bulletproofme.com. I bought some Level IIIA in 2005. They still provided support even after all this time! They called me to resolve the problem after emailing back and forth. I like them and will go to them again.

I have some Shot Stop Deuterium plates. They're light and good for 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39. They weigh 3.9#.

As for SHTF, DrJonesUSA makes a good point for resupply. Get some good lightweight plates for use and cheaper steel as backup. We have multiple rifles and handguns; why not armor? I have my old ceramic plates that weigh 8# each but are rated for 30-06. They're fine for backup.