11% tax where are we at in the lawsuit?

[treelogger]

It is how the anti 2A establishment that dominates California Law operates.

Until California is no longer a one party rule state, expect to see no changes that favor gun owners.

It’s California. Disregarding The Constitution is common place in the PRK.

I thought we were not supposed to talk about politics, except in dedicated safe spaces?

Money donated to CRPA is supporting these law firms that are willing to fight for our rights.

Interestingly, it turns out that Chuck Michel is the President of the CRPA. And as the Michel law firm, also the largest beneficiary of the CRPA's money. Curious, isn't it?

These cases drag out for years and it takes lots of $ to fight the state.

CRPA with its best effort, the lawsuit will be stalled for many years, ...

They would go faster if our lawyers knew the rules. When suing a government agency (like the city building department), you first need to exhaust administrative remedies. Michel forgot that. Or tried to pull a fast one. Or was hoping the state wouldn't catch it. While the level of incompetence hasn't risen to the infamous Hokanson (who used to represent either the FPC or CGF, I forgot which, and got one of their cases nearly thrown out), this kind of knowledge is table stakes in this business.

What other constitutional right do you have to pay special taxes or fees to exercise?

Let's see, the right to shoot guns and use ammunition? There has been a federal 11% excise tax on guns and ammo, for about a hundred years. It has never been overthrown in court. That makes it very unlikely that trying to overthrow the California additional 11% will be successful.

Also, go back to the history of lawsuits around taxing paper and ink used to make newspapers. While there have been some Supreme Court judgements that say "you can't tax one newspaper different from the other (happened I think in PA, where the tax was structured such that the largest newspaper publisher was exempt from the tax, while most others weren't), other taxes on paper and ink have stood the test of time, if they are applied fairly, and the tax rates are not exorbitant.

If the tax was 10000% such that only the very rich could afford guns and ammo, it would be a slam dunk case....

The fact that the tax rate is exactly the same as the century-old federal excise tax on guns and ammo is not a coincidence.

Unlike a poll tax Californians can simply choose not to pay by acquiring their firearms via PPT.

That argument fails the "economics 101" test. Where did the guns that get re-sold via PPT come from? Most of them were originally sold by a store, so they have the 11% baked in. There are exceptions that do not have the 11% tax baked into their value, for example intrafamiliar transfers from out of state, LE sales, guns brought in by new residents, and online ammo purchases with FFL03+CoE. But are you going to claim that these "small loopholes" make the 11% tax de-facto pointless?

My prediction: This tax will be around for a long time. Sure, Michel may make a quarter or half a million in legal fees first. Good for them.

 

[SLORNR]

“I thought we were not supposed to talk about politics, except in dedicated safe spaces?”

Was there something in my text that made you want to retreat to a dedicated safe space?

“That argument fails the "economics 101" test. Where did the guns that get re-sold via PPT come from? Most of them were originally sold by a store, so they have the 11% baked in. There are exceptions that do not have the 11% tax baked into their value, for example intrafamiliar transfers from out of state, LE sales, guns brought in by new residents, and online ammo purchases with FFL03+CoE. But are you going to claim that these "small loopholes" make the 11% tax de-facto pointless?”

“My prediction: This tax will be around for a long time. Sure, Michel may make a quarter or half a million in legal fees first. Good for them.”

I haven’t purchased a gun from a dealer in California in over 20 years. Most of what I own came in from out of state, which is the exception not the rule, so I concede your point. However, I never stated that purchasing via PPT “made the 11% tax de-facto pointless.” More specifically I stated that the tax would increase to about 15% within the next 2-3 years, and people will pay it. If a California resident purchases direct from an FFL they don’t really have a choice. The value of the PPT is that someone else already paid that 11% if they purchased from an FFL vs PPT in CA. That will more than likely change as well, as I have stated in another previous post. The state will find a legislative way to exploit and extort the secondary market, just give it some more time.

My prediction? This tax will not only be around for a long time, it will increase in the years to come along with a plethora of other legislative acts designed to squeeze money out of citizens who choose to exercise their 2A rights. I have not seen any signs of things moving in a direction benefiting gun owners here. Again, every year gun owners in CA are losing ground and we will continue to do so. Now that may cause some to label me a pessimist, but I don’t believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny either. For those that do, that is their prerogative.

 

[shroom]

It would be pretty amazing if excise taxes were just ruled illegal all round right? Then I could finally buy smokes without feeling like I'm slowly bankrupting myself.

This law will stay in place for a a long time. Look at Duncan v. Bonta recently. The SC GVR'd (sent the case back to the lower courts to do again in light of Bruen) and the exact same panel that reviewed the case previously came to almost the exact same conclusions. Bruen says to not interest balance, Bruen says to use a historical analogue. 9th circuit said "lol nah we're gonna interest balance this b!tch (censorship really?) and we don't need any historical analogues" and their new opinion was almost identical to their previous one, practically word for word in some places.

Maybe if we had 5 Clarence Thomas' on the court we could expect to see some relief on 2A infringements. Unfortunately we have ACB, Roberts, and Kavanaugh.

 

[ikeo1]

I thought we were not supposed to talk about politics, except in dedicated safe spaces?

This is specific to 2A in California which is directly related to what people are taxed in the state.

The other political discussion is in its own space. We'll have to monitor things but we want to distinguish between the two. As long as it doesn't turn into blaming parties for everything.

I also think they'll continue to tax it like gas and cigarettes as a way to indirectly discourage people. We need to put more pressure on legislators as a group. The biggest problem is that a lot of people who don't shoot will agree with the tax because they don't shoot and aren't affected by it. Then state politicians both republican & democrats will use it as a way to fund other projects in the state.

What we're seeing now is how politicians are using taxes to raise revenue in niche areas to offset funding issues with tax deductions. I think it's a trend we'll see continue.

 

[USMC06RET]

The biggest problem is that a lot of people who don't shoot will agree with the tax because they don't shoot and aren't affected by it.

Considering the second amendment has failed miserably (so far) at achieving it's primary purpose of defending against tyranny, what's the motivation for non-shooters to go out of their way to defend it? Let's face it, not many people here give a about the rest of the constitution so, why should other people care about part of the constitution that hasn't lived up to it's hype?

 

[SLORNR]

Considering the second amendment has failed miserably (so far) at achieving it's primary purpose of defending against tyranny, what's the motivation for non-shooters to go out of their way to defend it. Let's face it, not many people here give a about the rest of the constitution so, why should other people care about part of the constitution that hasn't lived up to it's hype?

I don’t disagree. However, as I previously posted, this a cultural issue as much as it is a legal one. If you look at the most pro gun, pro 2A states, it is ingrained in their culture, it is in their DNA.

How many of our wine sipping, French Laundry dining, wealth redistributing legislatures have ever owned or operate a firearm? They have no personal or vested interest in being pro gun. The opposite is true. Even if they own stock in S&W, levying an 11% sin tax on new gun purchases is to their benefit. Many of their anti gun constituents will be pleased if/when that money finds its way back to their districts as well. It is win win for them.

I don’t see a shift in the direction of a pro gun culture here. Sadly, that culture war was lost many years ago in CA.

Luckily the state is the most populated in the union, so even though gun owners are a minority here, at least the state still represents a huge market share and it keeps the gun industry engaged enough to deal with the extortion practices they are subjected too. Bottom line, money is the X factor.

 

[USMC06RET]

How many of our wine sipping, French Laundry dining, wealth redistributing legislatures have ever owned or operate a firearm?

It's painfully obvious that 99.5% of politicians in the USA are motivated only by those things that will keep them in or elevate their power and or put money in their pockets.

There are a few politicos who are in office because they really want to do the right thing and make the world a better place but they are a infinitesimal percentage of the total. They're probably not very different than most other people who only give a rat's ass about those things that affect them personally. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say: "I'll be dead by the time that happens so, I don't care." OR "That doesn't apply to me, I don't care what happens to 'those' people", and other similar morally vacuous rationales.

Bottom line, you want politicos to be more concerned about the second amendment (or anything else), you need to give them a reason, make it worth their while, etc. motherless ing about how their policies affect you (not you personally) without giving consideration to their motivations is doomed to fail every time.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[SLORNR]

I believe we are saying the same thing. There is a reason Congress never has a very high approval rating.

Personally, I am more disappointed in the Judicial Branch. They have proven to be merely an extension of the legislative. For the most part the checks and balances envisioned by the founding fathers has eroded away, enabling the legislature to run amok.

“It’s a big club and you (and I) ain’t in it!” -George Carlin

 

[USMC06RET]

I believe we are saying the same thing. There is a reason Congress never has a very high approval rating.

Personally, I am more disappointed in the Judicial Branch. They have proven to be merely an extension of the legislative. For the most part the checks and balances envisioned by the founding fathers has eroded away, enabling the legislature to run amok.

“It’s a big club and you (and I) ain’t in it!” -George Carlin

Huh, my perspective is that on a federal level, at this juncture, it is the Executive that has run amok and the Legislature and the Supreme judiciary are simply going along because they are in the pockets of the billionaires and in the case of the politicos, are deathly afraid of the large orange mouth vomiting vitriol all over their reelections.

If you are talking about California, I think the politicos are doing what the majority of the people who vote(d) for them want (so they can stay in office) and I have a more favorable view of the ninth circuit than is accepted as politically correct on this site.

 

[skb720]

Thomas Massie and probably Rand Paul are just few that are true libertarians and defender of the principles of freedom. Watch Massie's takedown of his liberal anti gun colleagues during the House AW ban hearing few years ago. Of course Trump gonna derail Massie and bully him to extinction.

 

[SLORNR]

Huh, my perspective is that on a federal level, at this juncture, it is the Executive that has run amok and the Legislature and the Supreme judiciary are simply going along because they are in the pockets of the billionaires and in the case of the politicos, are deathly afraid of the large orange mouth vomiting vitriol all over their reelections.

If you are talking about California, I think the politicos are doing what the majority of the people who vote(d) for them want (so they can stay in office) and I have a more favorable view of the ninth circuit than is accepted as politically correct on this site.

The Federal Executive has precisely zero to do with an 11% sin tax on the purchase of a new firearm in the State of CA.

We definitely aren’t saying the same thing. The “Orange man bad” rhetoric is precisely what brings out the worst in people, and something that moderator @ikeo1 had previously addressed as a concern, as it immediately creates a divisive and hostile environment.

Hate is never the right play. Hate makes a man look weak, amongst other short comings.

 

[USMC06RET]

We definitely aren’t saying the same thing. The “Orange man bad” rhetoric is precisely what brings out the worst in people, and something that moderator @ikeo1 had previously addressed as a concern, as it immediately creates a divisive and hostile environment.

Hate is never the right play. Hate makes a man look weak, amongst other short comings.

Feel free to express your opinions about the idiot in the oval office and I will do the same. If my opinion makes you feel hostile and divided, I suggest that you need to get your emotions in check. We all need to be able to express our opinions even if those opinions are unpopular.

As for your "hate" comment, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you looking out for my image!

 

[SLORNR]

Feel free to express your opinions about the idiot in the oval office and I will do the same. If my opinion makes you feel hostile and divided, I suggest that you need to get your emotions in check. We all need to be able to express our opinions even if those opinions are unpopular.

As for your "hate" comment, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you looking out for my image!

Pivoting to personal attacks. That’s not really a good play either.

 

[Mil-Dot]

CA legislators are addicted to our money.

1 in 30 actually hurt them in that regard. Think about it.

I anticipate an increase in the next 2-3 years. Why? Because most people will pay the tax.

I will only buy PPT as a result. There are plenty of great guns on the secondary market that don’t come with that 11% theft.

This is why I refuse to buy anything in CA anymore. Fortunately I have out of state connections. I feel bad for all those that don't. Since that was enacted I have not bought 1 thing in this state and will jot buy anything again. Sucks for the FFL's as well.

 

[Mil-Dot]

IF you donated to CRPA you would get updates on this. You can join or just donate

CRPA - California Rifle & Pistol Association

Support Your Second Amendment Rights. The California Rifle & Pistol Association, founded in 1875, provides training in the safe, responsible, and enjoyable use of firearms; sanctions competitive shooting state championships; and fights for the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for those...

crpa.org

CRPA is currently in litigation over the 11% :

CRPA Fights Back: Lawsuit Against 11% Excise Tax! - CRPA

California Rifle & Pistol Association

crpa.org

CRPA and Michele and associates are who take on these cases to get the BS CA stuff overturned through the courts. Money donated to CRPA is supporting these law firms that are willing to fight for our rights. These cases drag out for years and it takes lots of $ to fight the state.

Im a CRPA member as well and only get the updates when the new issue mag comes out or sometimes emails and IG if it's actually breaking news.

 

[SLORNR]

This is why I refuse to buy anything in CA anymore. Fortunately I have out of state connections. I feel bad for all those that don't. Since that was enacted I have not bought 1 thing in this state and will jot buy anything again. Sucks for the FFL's as well.

I’m in the same boat. I’ve bounced in and out the state for years and I have legally acquired pretty much every California legal item I could ever want at this point.

 

[Mil-Dot]

I’m in the same boat. I’ve bounced in and out the state for years and I have legally acquired pretty much every California legal item I could ever want at this point.

Honestly been into competition the last few years heavy so im only running 2011's. I dont even shoot anything besides those anymore and my edc every other week. Everything else sits in the safe and collects dust. I have no need to buy anything else at this juncture so im content anyway. I want to buy 1 more 2011 that I have my eye on but thats pretty much it and ill buy that out of state as well.

 

[Dvrjon]

They would go faster if our lawyers knew the rules. When suing a government agency (like the city building department), you first need to exhaust administrative remedies. Michel forgot that. Or tried to pull a fast one. Or was hoping the state wouldn't catch it. While the level of incompetence hasn't risen to the infamous Hokanson (who used to represent either the FPC or CGF, I forgot which, and got one of their cases nearly thrown out), this kind of knowledge is table stakes in this business.

Right on point. In earlier videos, Chuck mentioned (although they had filed in the federal court) that they weren't sure if they needed to file in State or federal court.

In a later interview with one of the firm's lawyers, stated the CRPA legal team knew that proceeding with the litigation without having addressed the Exhaustion of Remedies doctrine, was a non-starter in the courts. Regardless, they decided to press forward with litigation with the hope that the State attorneys would miss it. Of course, this brilliant gambit was only acknowledged after the State attorneys DIDN'T miss it and CRPA had to withdraw the case.

One full year (time and $$$$) lost in litigation and God knows how long it will take them to figure out the fairly straight-forward administrative appeal to CFTDA (California Department of Tax and Fee Administration...the tax arm of CA). CDTFA will rule that their actions in collecting the taxes are legal, as they are following the law as laid out by the Legislature. That will allow sufficient time to figure out whether CRPA needs to file the litigation in State or federal court.

Save your receipts.

 

[Walmart_AR15]

Also, go back to the history of lawsuits around taxing paper and ink used to make newspapers. While there have been some Supreme Court judgements that say "you can't tax one newspaper different from the other (happened I think in PA, where the tax was structured such that the largest newspaper publisher was exempt from the tax, while most others weren't), other taxes on paper and ink have stood the test of time, if they are applied fairly, and the tax rates are not exorbitant.

The Supreme court case on paper and ink used to make newspaper (1A issue) have parallel with our 11% sin tax. The Fed gun/ammo tax is equally applied to all the citizens reside in USA for every State; the CA sin tax only applies to the CA residents. Since like 1A, 2A is a Constitution Right applies to all States, CA taxing its own citizens in addition of the Fed tax runs afoul of the tax being applied fairly and equally.

 

[jesse]

If anyone is interested rifle supply in Huntington Beach is currently paying excise tax on guns and ammo all month and they usually do that multiple times throughout the year